X-bow poll

[grizz]

Originally Posted by DZaidle

So, do you have a problem with a newbie hitting the woods with his brand new bow? He's unskilled, inexperienced, unpracticed, and maybe knows nothing about whitetail anatomy or shot placement. But is it okay for him to be in the woods hunting during archery season on the basis that he is using a "conventional" bow? And if you do object to him hunting without having "paid his dues" in practice and all that, how do you propose to identify him and keep him out?

DZ

Chances are he would not get a shot off in a real hunting environment. He would learn and gain skill thru trial and error and work ethic. I think it sums up to willing to go thru the learning process.

Its hunting season, not killing season.


So, I would gather that you feel Pope And Young regulations are draconian and elitist

[DZaidle]

biggen: "Oh yea why is the OL poll a farce? Enlighten me!"

Because anyone can vote multiple times, not just once. A mass email went out encouraging recipients to do exactly that (vote multpiple times) "to send a clear anti-crossbow message."

The poll reflects nothing more than how many times X number of people voted, not how many voted, and it in no way reflects general opinion about crossbows.

That's why it is a farce.

DZ

[DZaidle]

grizz: "Chances are he would not get a shot off in a real hunting environment. He would learn and gain skill thru trial and error and work ethic. I think it sums up to willing to go thru the learning process.
...
So, I would gather that you feel Pope And Young regulations are draconian and elitist."

Let' see, since effective range is identical between a crossbow and a compound, then chances are he wouldn't get off a shot with a crossbow, either. So, what is the problem with him being in the woods with a crossbow?

Yes, P&Y is elitist and exclusionary. However, P&Y is a private organization (actually a "club" by definition), so they can do anything they like and it is irrelevant because it affects only members, not the hunting population at large. The Texas Parks & Wildlife Department and laws appertaining thereto are a different matter. I can choose or not choose to pay P&Y dues, be a member, and thus follow its rules when hunting. I do not have that option with TPWD.

So, it doesn't matter if P&Y is elitist.

[grizz]

Don, I don't want to be confrontational and am personally tired of rehashing this debate online...but for the record you are one of these people.

I should have read this first. Would have saved me some typing.

Good G2!!! Glad your on the case :P

[grizz]

Originally Posted by DZaidle

Let' see, since effective range is identical between a crossbow and a compound, then chances are he wouldn't get off a shot with a crossbow, either. So, what is the problem with him being in the woods with a crossbow?.

We can disagree on the effective range comparison for now because range is not the issue. It

[DZaidle]

Originally Posted by grizz

Welcome, and this is a sensitive topic for me so I'll keep it to basics. Archers, must execute the shot in the presence of the game. This means plan the shot, DRAW in the presence of game and HOLD the weapon at draw until the shot presents itself. Most Bows, even with 65-80% lettof, are hard to keep drawn while the game takes it's time meandering thru.
This is the SKILL of archers and the basics of a primitive weapon.

Xbows- are shoulder fired like a rifle, scoped for long distance shooting, high poundage, small bolt for extended range, and can be loaded and held loaded indefinately. This equated to me a modern weapon.

My main objection is that public lands cannot withstand the hunting pressure of an extended MODERN weapon season. We public land hunters have very low sucess numbers, see few deer and not many public land deer reach maturity of 4-8 years. A global passage of bill 1334 would increase pressure on the public deer herd and reduce the public herds age/maturity.

X-bows on controlled access properties are a different issue based on philosophical ideas which I will not present my views on

This is so full of holes I hardly know where to begin.

"This is the SKILL of archers and the basics of a primitive weapon. "

No it isn't, this is about upper body strength. Skill has nothing to do with it.

"...shoulder fired like a rifle..."

If you use a mechanical release, sight pins, string peep, and stabilizer with a modern compound, dump all those and go to a "slick" bow and I will give you that one.

"...scoped for long distance shooting..."

Define "long distance." Max effective distance with a crossbow is 40 yards, same as a compound.

"...high poundage..."

They have to be because of the shorter bolt and stroke length in order to achieve the same velocity as a compound (300 fps, give or take 10).


"...small bolt for extended range..."

No, the shorter bolt/arrow is so that the bow does not wind up being five feet long. Has nothing to do with range.

"...and can be loaded and held loaded indefinately..."

So can a compound under existing TPWD rules.

"This equated to me a modern weapon."

Lets see, the crossbow has been around since, what, 600 BC? Yep, that's one modern weapon. Also, see the "shoulder fired" bit above, then we'll discuss "modern" weapons.

"My main objection is that public lands cannot withstand the hunting pressure of an extended MODERN weapon season. "

The crossbow is not a modern weapon. Further, in states with long histories of crossbow use, there is no difference in harvest rates between crossbows and "conventional" bows.

"We public land hunters have very low sucess numbers, see few deer and not many public land deer reach maturity of 4-8 years."

Not in counties with the 13-inch rule.

"A global passage of bill 1334 would increase pressure on the public deer herd and reduce the public herds age/maturity."

Virtually all public lands are administered by TPWD and hunting is by permit. Limited permits equals the same hunting pressure.

DZ

[DZaidle]

Originally Posted by LostHawg

There are already provisions in place for new folks who want to hunt with a crossbow; in the general season.

Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument with the new super-combo license. Especially since Parks and Wildlife never kept a tally of the stamps in the first place.

"There are already provisions in place for new folks who want to hunt with a crossbow; in the general season."

Not if they want to hunt an extended season.

"Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument with the new super-combo license. Especially since Parks and Wildlife never kept a tally of the stamps in the first place."

Then "conventional" bowhunters need to stop harping abput the season "they pay/paid" for.

DZ

[DZaidle]

Originally Posted by tinman

Don, I don't want to be confrontational and am personally tired of rehashing this debate online...but for the record you are one of these people. Like the family members of the TV hunter who went before the House Committee hearing HB-1334 as "concerned individuals", you accept money from Horton and work for them to promote crossbows through your magazine. I know how you personally try to influence your magazine's bowhunting contributors to use and promote crossbows as Archery Weapons...and have even discouraged some (myself included) from writing bowhunting/archery articles.

People who stand to gain financially through this type of legislation should not be the people pushing it...but you came here promising/threatening to get us next time! Yet, you portray the archery community as hostile in this cartoon you ran in '04? [see below]

Simply put this is not an anti-crossbow crusade for us, Don. It is our reaction to this crusade being driven by crossbow manufacturers across North America....not just in Texas. It is also the reaction of every other State/Provincial Bowhunting rights organization in North America, the North American Bowhunters Rights Coalition, the Pope & Young Club, the Professional Bowhunters Society, the National Bowhunter's Education Foundation, etc...we must all be too slow to understand "logical" thought.

No one wants to kick you out, (though a minority) there are some LSBA members who share your view on this issue. We value their overall support and opinions as much as any member's but our actions must represent the majority of our membership. I would welcome the opportunity to share a campfire with you sometime soon, hunt some hogs...and if you insist we can discuss this topic. Maybe if we'd both learn that we are not one another's enemy, we can work together to find a solution that will satisfy both sides of this debate.

My magazine does not "accept" advertising from any manufacturer--we *solicit* it. It is how we make our livings. That is no more relevant to the issue at hand than is the Gulf Fisheries Counsel gutting the recreational snapper fishery in favor of commercial fishing. Because we solicit advertising from recreational fishing equipment manufacturers, should we be silent on this issue as well?

Sorry, Joey, that is at best a straw-man argument, or perhaps more properly a red herring.

And I reiterate agin that it was a schoolboy email from a "conventional" bowhunter that pused me over the edge on this. It made me even more of an "anti-anti" than I already was. I am fed up with elitism, calls for bans of this or that method or means that that is perfectly legitimate and ethical--and exclusionary rhetoric, regardless of it purpose or origin.

DZ

[Trailboss]

"Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument with the new super-combo license. Especially since Parks and Wildlife never kept a tally of the stamps in the first place."

Then "conventional" bowhunters need to stop harping abput the season "they pay/paid" for.

DZ[/quote]

Just because TPWD doesn't keep a count doesn't change the fact that we paid for the stamps.

Trailboss

[DZaidle]

"I've never been titled an elitist because I feel that hunting with handguns should not be allowed in the archery season why am I so because of my position on crossbows?"

Because handguns are firearms,not bows.

DZ

[DZaidle]

grizz:"Is it your position that Public Land deer are mature, numerous and need to be culled at a greater rate?"

Strawman argument, I never said that.

My position is that there is *no* logical or biological reason to disallow crossbows during arhhery season; that allowing them would increase hunter recruitment/retention, and would increase license sales and therefore help fund TPWD.

Since crossbows on public land seems to be your primary concern, there is a simple remedy for that: disallow them on public land. Similar restrictions are already in place on many public lands (restricted to shotguns only in some cases, shotguns, muzzle loaders, and bows in others, etc.) Since most hunting in Texas is on private land, such restrictions would affect the fewest hunters while freeing the rest to hunt private lands with crossbows during archery season.

DZ

[DZaidle]

Trailboss: "Just because TPWD doesn't keep a count doesn't change the fact that we paid for the stamps."

Crossbow hunters will buy archery stamps, too.

Besides, *you* are the one who wrote that "Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument..."

DZ

[DZaidle]

grizz: We can disagree on the effective range comparison for now because range is not the issue. It

[grizz]

Originally Posted by DZaidle

This is so full of holes I hardly know where to begin.

I

[grizz]

Since crossbows on public land seems to be your primary concern, there is a simple remedy for that: disallow them on public land. Similar restrictions are already in place on many public lands (restricted to shotguns only in some cases, shotguns, muzzle loaders, and bows in others, etc.) Since most hunting in Texas is on private land, such restrictions would affect the fewest hunters while freeing the rest to hunt private lands with crossbows during archery season.

DZ[/quote]

Then I have no further argument pro/con except my philosophical one which is definitional. Since I don't lease, I will defer to others to standup and support thier hunting situation.

BTW, Thank you for posting here and discussing this issue. I was unaware of the Draw assist mechanism being within the current rules.......