TPWD Commissioners Propose Youth Rifle Season for the Month of October

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by mesquitecountry

...........Selfishness will be the death of our sport............

You only want "your" way.

This is why our sport is dying. Because selfishness and greed, because we as a whole are unwilling to give up anything of "ours" to carry on the torch.

I find you arrogant when you continue to call someone selfish because they don't agree with you that a already in place season should be done away with. You don't know any of us. And yes, putting youth gun in the archery only WILL do away with it.

I don't think you want to discuss the real reasons for hunting numbers falling in Texas. Youth hunting is not the answer because it (youth hunting) is and has been going on for several years in Texas.

Originally Posted by mesquitecountry

Why is it that everytime someone that comes along that is younger that wants to improve something it is given a negative connotation Bill?

I know this is far fetched but it is an analogy not really pertinent but an analogy nonetheless.

Slavery was supposedly a great thing at one time, well we all know for a fact that it was one of the most devastating misuse of power in history. Not comparing the two but just playing the devils advocate.
.............

Travis I've looked and I see nowhere that I brought up your age. The "improvement" is your opinion only and weak at that.

You are right, I see no analogy there at all.

Originally Posted by BearOmni

Umm, Archery season is already set in place too.

I dont know this for a fact, but have been told that bow hunters proposed a self imposed "tax" (archery stamp) to be allowed to hunt in Oct. This was done so hunts could take place without competition from gun hunters..................

You seem to have skipped right over this one.

I said I was done before, I truly am now. Continue your stirring.

[mesquitecountry]

So you are saying deer are stressed due to bowhunters picking over most deer?

Tracy said add in youth season after general. Which would be where I was emphasizing the stressed deer from hunters in the woods.

To be honest, I'm not sold on the need for ANY youth days/season. I think some people are looking at this like kids are going to just show up because its a youth day, like we do for opening day. These kids have to get to the woods somehow, who is bringing them?
I dont think there are many kids that hunt unless they are with their parents or family members. Therefore, they can hunt ALL SEASON long. if a parent wont let them hunt on any day of the season why should we think that parent would take time out to bring them on a youth weekend?

I keep repeating myself. The point is to give them a head start BEFORE everyone else.

They dont have to be able to pull 40 pounds. If you agree with the rule or not it IS the rule that there is no min draw weight.
I do agree it is up to the parent to decide when a kid is ready to shoot at an animal. Bow or gun.

It is my opinion that a bow is not efficient enough to kill a deer with a bow that is less than 40#'s. If it is questionable then why let them shoot a deer and wound it. Then you have lost a deer and you have a disappointed hunter.

Is there a specific reason you feel kids should hunt with guns before hunting with a bow?

With regards to big game. A gun is much more efficient killing a big game animal. A .243 that is low recoil stands a much better chance at killing a deer than a 20 or 30# compound. It is about respect for the game and providing a clean kill.

This would not be a problem if they were bow hunting.

for the reasons above I have IMO shown you why the bow is inadequate for a young child to hunt big game. My daughter will have a kiddy bow the first moment she can be able to pull one back. She wont be able to bowhunt whitetails until she can pull 40 and be able to demonstrate that she can handle shooting big game with a rifle first.

I find you arrogant when you continue to call someone selfish because they don't agree with you that a already in place season should be done away with. You don't know any of us. And yes, putting youth gun in the archery only WILL do away with it.

I don't think you want to discuss the real reasons for hunting numbers falling in Texas. Youth hunting is not the answer because it (youth hunting) is and has been going on for several years in Texas.

Let me get this straight. Because you dont like my way of life it's arrogant! I hate to break it to you BILL. But everything that is being done to promote hunting IS FAILING MISERABLY! NOTHING we are currently doing is working.

I don't think you want to discuss the real reasons for hunting numbers falling in Texas. Youth hunting is not the answer because it (youth hunting) is and has been going on for several years in Texas.

Selfishness and greed is the main problem solving causing the decline in hunting, along with other faster gratification less time consuming hobbies.

So are you done now or are you going to keep on calling names while everyone else has remained level headed. You find that because I think differently I'm stirring the pot. Well i have news for you bill. I dont have to fall under the cookie cutter plan that is FAILING! I'm working on being proactive to make this GROW!

If they are hunting with rifles, the stress factor is non existant. That is a weak argument at best. You set the kid in a walled in blind, zero his/her scope to 100 yards, set a feeder up at 80 yards and wait for the deer to come in to feed. Lay the stock on a rest and the kid snuggles up to the butt of the gun looking through 3 - 9X50 and squeezes off the round and the deer never even knows he/she was there.

The stress factor is not an issue for gun hunting. The deer can't outrun the bullet like it can an arrow.

Very weak...

My only concern would be the weather and that's an adaptable thing. It can be overcome. Part of learning to hunt.

And its a pretty sorry parent that's afraid to tell his/her child they need to wait till they're a little more mature.

LMAO! You as well as everyone else has used gun hunting as a stress factor that will cause deer to leave your hunting areas. Now you're saying that gun hunting has no effect and putting a youth season after general wouldnt be hunting stressed deer. Seriously Tracy. You're all over the board trying to emphasize your points but you're flip flopping faster than john kerry on the war. I have no problem telling my daughter she needs to wait to bowhunt!

[mesquitecountry]

I am done arguing with everyone here. It is clear that no one that is apart of LSBA cares to listen to opposing views, overlooks the obvious that we are failing by a large margin at adding new hunters or keeping retension high.

Our programs are not working. Hopefully one day someone besides the handful are going to wake up (hopefully before we no longer have any hunting seasons) and realize it is time we put our future first and our wants second.

I'm done and not just saying I'm done and continue to post.

[Ronny]

I beg your pardon Travis
This boy is 9

[LostHawg]

There's more to hunting than taking the shot!

Travis, it appears to me that you aren't looking at the big picture.

Furthermore, you take our stance against rifle hunting in the archery season as being opposed to encouraging youth to hunt. Then you spend your whole effort talking about taking the shot, not hunting and making the shot happen.

First and foremost the child MUST learn his way in the woods. No ifs, ands or buts. Giving the child a bow and taking that child hunting for rabbits, quail, squirrel, other small game will do this. Far better than shooting with a rifle from an elevated box blind that you can drive to, drop the kid off, sit there till its time to leave. THAT is not hunting. You put the kid on the ground with a 25 or 30 pound bow and chase rabbits, and that kids going to be grinning from ear to ear as he passes out in the truck on the return drive home. Then, you'll be hard pressed for a moment of silence at supper as he retails a dozen times how his arrow skipped over the ears of that rabbit that was hiding under the prickly pear. Travis, you've GOT to take a kid HUNTING to understand. That gun you want them to have so badly is NOT how you teach a kid to hunt and ENJOY hunting. You give that child a bow or a light gauge shotgun and go after small game (which IS open in October) and you let them lead on the TRAIL. In this you can teach them deer sign, what a coon track looks like, a squirrel's trash after peeling a black walnut, etc. You don't do that with a .243 in a tower or brush blind. No, you put that child on the ground, on the trail, HUNTING.

What you and P&W are pursuing is NOT doing this. You look at hunting as just sitting there and when the deer shows up, turns sideways, you take the shot and you're HUNTING!! No. You have GOT to teach that kid from level one. What you and P&W have in mind is not hunting, it is merely "harvesting game".

See my avatar? I would never have been able to do that if I hadn't started at an early age hunting small game and learning when I can and can't move. If I hadn't learned to use the terrain as well as the flora as cover. When I could and couldn't take the shot. What better vehicle than the bow and arrow to teach these to a child? Not the rifle. The rifle isolates you from the environment and the animals you pursue. You don't learn much at all. Just shoot, cut and drag. Sometimes, not often, but sometimes you'll track a wounded animal, but not very often.

Archery, in this, prevails.

[BearOmni]

Originally Posted by mesquitecountry

I keep repeating myself. The point is to give them a head start BEFORE everyone else.

Point taken, but your line of reason doesnt make much sense to me.
If we are to give them a head start BEFORE everyone else then October isnt the answer. They will be hunting with someone else, BOW HUNTERS.
If you are saying they need a head start before the other GUN hunters, then maybe we should suggest that November 1st through 10th be youth only.
With all the talk of selfishness, why cant gun hunters give up 10 days of their 3 months? (or more if they are MLD) Why should bow hunters, who have "bought" the right to have a month to themselves without gun fire be asked to give that up?

It is my opinion that a bow is not efficient enough to kill a deer with a bow that is less than 40#'s. If it is questionable then why let them shoot a deer and wound it. Then you have lost a deer and you have a disappointed hunter.

I'll never tell someone their opinion is wrong, but I can and will disagree with it.
The state says a bow less than 40# is legal to use.
The state says you must be 16 to drive, 18 to vote, 21 to drink, and you cant deer hunt with a rim fire rifle.
We must accept those rules and follow them. If you dont agree with a rule or law then you must get active and change it, but dont base an entire argument off the fact that the law doesnt reflect your opinion.

With regards to big game. A gun is much more efficient killing a big game animal. A .243 that is low recoil stands a much better chance at killing a deer than a 20 or 30# compound. It is about respect for the game and providing a clean kill.

Again, I see this as a parental responsibility. The parent must judge when a child is at what they feel is a proper draw weight.

Personally I feel if a child cant hold, steady, aim, and fire a gun without any help from someone they are not ready to gun hunt.

A child that is strong enough to do those things with a gun, is a child who can shoot a bow with enough #'s to kill a deer. It just takes practice and dedication.

[BearOmni]

Travis, You posted that you were done while I was typing the above post.
I value your opinion and would like to continue trying to understand you view point.
Dont get your feelings hurt and go away. If you feel strongly, make an effort to let others see your side of the story.

Be respectful (not saying you havent been) and have a healthy debate.

I still think I can turn you to my views

[traildust]

MC...Shouldnt you be stuffin' sausage or something..What I dont understand is why you get on a BOWHUNTING site and go against the grain, I guess TTHA doesnt have a forum....You say your for ALL hunters, but you continue to push your views, while they are not anti-hunting, they impose changes to what many BOWHUNTERS have fought for many years...ie: crossbows, firearms during BOW ONLY season...Then try to use children as a crutch to convence yourself that you are right and evreyone who doesnt agree with your view is out of touch, on a sinking ship or selfish...You say the system is broken, I say your wrong...Texas has about 160K bowhunters....every year more people get into bowhunting.....The major factor that hunting may or may not be declining is because of (2) major reasons....ACCESS and COST....You could have youth season 365 days a year and it would not increase youth partisipation...Its a changing world we live in...with all the extra curricular activities kids are involved in today...some the youths want, others that the parents push there kids into....there is simply not enough time...do you think parents that dont have time to take their kids hunting in Nov & Dec are really gonna have more time in Oct...school starting, football, band, FFA, 4-H..homework.....video games...I know the "time out" generation has a hard time understanding that everyone will not make the team, sometimes YOU lose and sometimes you have to just sit in the stands...thats REAL life....Also, I have seen this personally, many times parents try to push there kids into someting that the PARENT is interested in, and kids push away....Just because you like hunting, fishing, whatever, doesnt mean your kids will...IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.....Sportsmen are doing just fine......Take Care

[River Bottom Hunter]

Originally Posted by traildust

MC...Shouldnt you be stuffin' sausage or something..What I dont understand is why you get on a BOWHUNTING site and go against the grain, I guess TTHA doesnt have a forum....You say your for ALL hunters, but you continue to push your views, while they are not anti-hunting, they impose changes to what many BOWHUNTERS have fought for many years...ie: crossbows, firearms during BOW ONLY season...Then try to use children as a crutch to convence yourself that you are right and evreyone who doesnt agree with your view is out of touch, on a sinking ship or selfish...You say the system is broken, I say your wrong...Texas has about 160K bowhunters....every year more people get into bowhunting.....The major factor that hunting may or may not be declining is because of (2) major reasons....ACCESS and COST....You could have youth season 365 days a year and it would not increase youth partisipation...Its a changing world we live in...with all the extra curricular activities kids are involved in today...some the youths want, others that the parents push there kids into....there is simply not enough time...do you think parents that dont have time to take their kids hunting in Nov & Dec are really gonna have more time in Oct...school starting, football, band, FFA, 4-H..homework.....video games...I know the "time out" generation has a hard time understanding that everyone will not make the team, sometimes YOU lose and sometimes you have to just sit in the stands...thats REAL life....Also, I have seen this personally, many times parents try to push there kids into someting that the PARENT is interested in, and kids push away....Just because you like hunting, fishing, whatever, doesnt mean your kids will...IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.....Sportsmen are doing just fine......Take Care

Very well put.

[nothinbutwelves]

weare tripping all over the answer i just saw it we leave oct as special archery season nov will be special general season where you can hunt youth rifle adult/youth shotgun adult/youth muzzle loader adult/youth crossbow adult /youth archery.then in dec ,as well as jan regular general season for all.this way all these rifle hunters can say i gave some to incorporate youth.lets ask the rifle hunters to give instead of take.we extend the season to the end of jan.be part of the solution instead of the problem.

[txhunter]

Originally Posted by rns

I beg your pardon Travis
This boy is 9

Thanks for throwing those in there Ronny. When we got home I put it on the scale and it is actually set at 30 pounds. So I guess a 30 pound bow will do the job.

[tinman]

Originally Posted by traildust

What I dont understand is why you get on a BOWHUNTING site and go against the grain, I guess TTHA doesnt have a forum....You say your for ALL hunters, but you continue to push your views, while they are not anti-hunting, they impose changes to what many BOWHUNTERS have fought for many years...ie: crossbows, firearms during BOW ONLY season...Then try to use children as a crutch to convence yourself that you are right and evreyone who doesnt agree with your view is out of touch, on a sinking ship or selfish...

Ding, ding, ding....we have a winner, Johnny!

Tell traildust what he's won!

[LostHawg]

Originally Posted by rns

I beg your pardon Travis
This boy is 9

That boy is awesome. And, I expect to see Liam doing the squat too in the next few years. As well as Caitlin...



She's just got to build up to weight. Will be taking her out with a .223 this year in hopes of her getting her first. She's also 9. But, It will probably be next week or later. I just don't seem to have much time this year for some reason.

[Roscoe]

Originally Posted by mesquitecountry

More of the same "me" comes first.

The "me" accusation is getting old. While it certainly may apply to some, to paint the whole archery community as such is unfair. I could just as easily say it's a "me first" thing that has parents seriousily slacking in the area of taking their children hunting during rifle season or it's "me first" that has some lease groups and landowners not allowing children to hunt outside the youth weekend, if they even allow kids to hunt at all. It's all un-productive "chatter" though.

The only reason I picked up a bow as a young adult in the first place was to spend more time in the woods hunting. There was never a point that I felt slighted or thought, "Those dang bowhunters gettin a head start...." I just picked up a bow and got after it. And during the many years where I quit bowhunting and only rifle hunted, I never had a problem with it either.

If bow season is open to youth rifle, what incentive will there be for youth to take up bow hunting? Most people and hunters basically tend to take the easiest route. I firmly believe that if a dedicated archery season is not kept in place, a SERIOUS decline in bowhunting will result over time. What a shame that would be.

I wonder how long behind this will come the push to open the general season Oct 1st?

I don't know what the long-term answer is to hunting particapation. I do not want to see the doing away with a dedicated archery season a part of the solution. This may go against the grain, but given the choice, I would rather see archery only be the last month of the season than give it up all together.

[DoubleJ]

At least we have generated some conversation on this topic and obviously some of us are very passionate about our opinions. Beleg covered it very well and pretty much sums up our position. The LSBA supports the youth of this state and have for years. Our booth at the TPW Expo has consistently been the most popular youth shooting event. We put the bow in the hands of over 7000 kids every year statewide. I will challenge anyone who questions our committment to youth hunters.

I also know for a fact, I was there, that the Commission used youth and women as their excuse for eliminating the minimum draw weight earlier this year not scientific evidence which was our recommendation. It seems to me they opened a youth archery season when they made that decision.

The following is an excerpt from TPWs Press Release regarding the upcoming public hearings:

"In response to a commission directive to seek additional opportunities for youth participation, the department is looking at extending the early youth only season to include the entire month of October and the late youth-only season by 12 days during January in selected counties to run concurrently with late antlerless and spike seasons. The intent of the proposal is to allow adults and children to hunt together during different special seasons."

Now a literal reading of the release "youth only" could mean no adult hunters without a qualifying youth. You also have to remember that in their infinite wisdom the Commission lowered the age for certification in Hunter Ed to 9. That means it is completely legal for an ARMED UNESCORTED 9 year old to be in the woods with you. Not likely but a scary thought just the same.

The LSBA could have supported the original proposal but Chairman Holt showed his true feelings about bow hunters when he issued the directive to consider the entire month of October.

If you think it will stop here then you are naive. We already have guns on MLDs in October now youth with guns in October. It's just one easy step to a General Season that runs from October thru January.

And just think we haven't even started facing the pending cross-bow issue yet but you can bet it's coming this next legislative session.

Having fun yet?