TPWD Commissioners Propose Youth Rifle Season for the Month of October

[JavelinaRuss]

Originally Posted by Bill M

Sorry JR but your experience is apparently limited making this statement. I find it curious that you keep knocking bowhunting during the Gen Season but don't mind putting the youth in the Archery Only.

I've had my say, I'm done.

Before I moved to South Texas In terms of the case that "Guns scare deer" thinking here's my observation from a 1,800 ac lease my folks and me were on not to long ago in Sutton County:

On this lease were ten hunters and only two were rifle only (my folks) the rest of us bow/rifle hunted and as such had ground blinds and tripods close to our feeding areas. Of all ten stand locations my parents stands had the most clam deer. Feeding stations were pretty much the same (two corn feeders in a small stand of cedar or oak) but the feeders with the more bowhunting going on at them the deer's head was on a swivel and the deer never seemed at ease.

The deer at my parents feeders never were skittish or jumpy, they just walked in and ate corn in peace and even stayed at the feeder when they left the area or walked back in to the feed pen a few minutes after they shot another deer. Everyone pretty much hunted the major holiday weekends and opening days and a few weekends in between so the blinds pretty much saw the same amount of hunting. it was from these observations I started putting a ground blind about 50 yds back on the major trail the deer used to my feeders and had wonderful luck bowhunting.

So my question is why are you still hunting after the archery season if it's SOOO much harder because all those rifles are going off?

[traildust]

JRUSS,
I know you make your living guiding, so are you thinking that if this is passes it will get more kids/parents hunting, therefore increasing YOUR workload....which in turn means more money in your pocket?... Your argument that you want kids to be able to hunt 95 days like bowhunters is invalid, because if THEY start out bowhunting, THEY can hunt the 95 days like US bowhunters. You have to crawl before you walk...Whats YOUR real agenda...personal gain?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by JavelinaRuss

Before I moved to South Texas In terms of the case that "Guns scare deer" thinking here's my observation from a 1,800 ac lease my folks and me were on not to long ago in Sutton County:

On this lease were ten hunters and only two were rifle only (my folks) the rest of us bow/rifle hunted and as such had ground blinds and tripods close to our feeding areas. Of all ten stand locations my parents stands had the most clam deer. Feeding stations were pretty much the same (two corn feeders in a small stand of cedar or oak) but the feeders with the more bowhunting going on at them the deer's head was on a swivel and the deer never seemed at ease.

The deer at my parents feeders never were skittish or jumpy, they just walked in and ate corn in peace and even stayed at the feeder when they left the area or walked back in to the feed pen a few minutes after they shot another deer. Everyone pretty much hunted the major holiday weekends and opening days and a few weekends in between so the blinds pretty much saw the same amount of hunting. it was from these observations I started putting a ground blind about 50 yds back on the major trail the deer used to my feeders and had wonderful luck bowhunting.

So my question is why are you still hunting after the archery season if it's SOOO much harder because all those rifles are going off?

To answer your question, because it's legal and after 40 years of being strictly a gun hunter, I prefer bowhunting for the past 6 years. Your above experiences don't begin to speak to the small acreage bow hunter in Texas. I could give you my experiences but I won't bother, it wouldn't matter to you.

I have to wonder why someone that would do away with archery only season bothers to come to bow hunting websites. Make no mistake, October youth season WOULD do away with the archery season.

Originally Posted by traildust

JRUSS,
I know you make your living guiding, so are you thinking that if this is passes it will get more kids/parents hunting, therefore increasing YOUR workload....which in turn means more money in your pocket?... Your argument that you want kids to be able to hunt 95 days like bowhunters is invalid, because if THEY start out bowhunting, THEY can hunt the 95 days like US bowhunters. You have to crawl before you walk...Whats YOUR real agenda...personal gain?

I think JR's signature speaks volumes!

"I'm all for the sport of hunting by any legal means possible........My JOB depends on it!"

[mesquitecountry]

Quite frankly, if you mean giving up Heart Attack for a 10 year old to take I have to call BS. That's a real easy thing to say after the fact and why didn't you do it to begin with. The youth hunting isn't a new stance for you. I'm sure not saying your heart isn't in the right place but I really don't think you guys are thinking this thing through from all the angles.

To carry on the sport i'd give it up in a heart beat. For just someone to shoot it to shoot it no, under our high fence. I wouldnt let a kid shoot a deer that big for the first buck at our place. I guess you just dont understand how our family works. We give back because we have been given plenty.

Low fence if the buck jumped the fence and was shot by a youth hunter on opening weekend of bow season with a rifle I'd congratulate him/her and be as happy as can be.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice to gain. Granted I'd much rather shoot the deer but if someone else did no problem here! I shot him because he was the biggest I've ever seen. I dont shoot deer like that back to back to back. We rotate on our ranch. We all give and take. No selfishness.

If you think i'm full of it so be it. I've put in the time, i alone have introduced 8 new hunters to bow hunting this season alone! Have taken numerous youth hunters/new hunters/vets over the last 5 years and will continue to do so. I'm not looking for a pat on the back or for anyone here to justify what I do. I do it cause I actually care about this sport.



In regard to guns. You or anyone can get MLD right now and start blazing away with guns in October. The doom and gloom you keep predicting is here and the sky is not falling yet.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by mesquitecountry

To carry on the sport i'd give it up in a heart beat. For just someone to shoot it to shoot it no, under our high fence. I wouldnt let a kid shoot a deer that big for the first buck at our place. I guess you just dont understand how our family works. We give back because we have been given plenty.

Low fence if the buck jumped the fence and was shot by a youth hunter on opening weekend of bow season with a rifle I'd congratulate him/her and be as happy as can be.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice to gain. Granted I'd much rather shoot the deer but if someone else did no problem here! I shot him because he was the biggest I've ever seen. I dont shoot deer like that back to back to back. We rotate on our ranch. We all give and take. No selfishness.

If you think i'm full of it so be it. I've put in the time, i alone have introduced 8 new hunters to bow hunting this season alone! Have taken numerous youth hunters/new hunters/vets over the last 5 years and will continue to do so. I'm not looking for a pat on the back or for anyone here to justify what I do. I do it cause I actually care about this sport.



In regard to guns. You or anyone can get MLD right now and start blazing away with guns in October. The doom and gloom you keep predicting is here and the sky is not falling yet.

Travis I'm not questioning at all you or your family's commitment to getting folks involved in hunting at your ranch. That is a commendable thing to do but what you and others are advocating flies in the face of what those before you and me have done for the sport of bowhunting in Texas and that I can't condone. I am done now.

[nothinbutwelves]

if any of you have ever been to a function where the L.S.B.A.was there you would know our dedication to ours as well as any youth out there is un wavering.just show up and spend 8 hours in the heat pulling arrows and kneeling down to help show a youngster how to hold a bow and release an arrow.this is bigger than your personal accomplishments of getting however many new hunters this year or last, this is our heritage.there isnt anyone amoung us that hasnt got someone started hunting our young people today arent tought to wait for things the old patientce is a virtue is being lost.and it is being taken by men who just dont want to share their openining morning with their young people ,here is where your selfishness shows its ugly head not by the L.S.B.A.trying to hold on to what is precious to us i am one of the biggest advocates for youth that i know i cut 3 adult classes to add young people classes to our 3d season and i took some ugly comments from those adult class people.youth are being used as shields to get symphony from those of us who may be on the fence kids can still hunt and they should hunt.let them learn to wait for their rewards so there is an appreciation for their accomplishments.within the peramators of a legitamate hunting season.if those of you who want to take youth hunting they have almost 3 months in general season to do so as well as let them have a bow for the month of oct.i love my family and i love all children!make no mistake about it this is not about young people hunting this is about parents who dont want to take their kids hunting on their time so it is better to do it on our time {bowhunters }now we need to unify and and quash this as a united organization. yours truly.

[mesquitecountry]

I've said on tbh and I'll say it right here again. I do not discredit any of the activities that LSBA puts on for youth. You will never hear those words come out of my mouth. This has nothing to do with the LSBA programs.

We only recruit people that already hunt and we want them to join the bowhunting group.

We need to be recruiting hunters. Not people who have hunted or just gun hunt but anyone that would say yes to the following question.

I know you may be against hunting, but hey why dont you and your kid/wife/cousin niece nephew come down with me and hunt some squirrels/hogs/deer with rifles,bows,slingshots, eat some good food and enjoy the peace of the outdoors. We'd love to have you as apart of the outdoorsman family.



Then recruit them to bowhunting after the fact.

I'm sorry but me as an indivdual entity can do much more by doing this than I can just helping out at a sponsored event. Not discrediting or anything just saying I can do much more on my dime and time.

[Tomme]

Mesquitecountry where I disagree with you is your apparent belief that more youth rifle weekends in October is necessary for youth recruitment. With 10-15 weekends already available for kids to rifle hunt deer, this will, (in my view) have little impact in terms of youth recruitment. It is not time to hunt that is restricting kids from hunting it's affordable leases and places to go.

In addition if you are interested in continuing hunting as a tradition in Texas you need to broaden your view to include not just new hunter recruitment, but also hunter retention as well.

I would not be a hunter today if it were not for the special archery season and bowhunting. On the small acreage leases I could afford in Central Texas the deer disappeared after opening weekend of rifle season. A 30 day season where I could at least see deer in October kept me going. If you "ruined" the opportunity to hunt on those small acreages in October, I and many like me would not be around and you'd have a net loss in hunter numbers.

In addition, you can bowhunt many more people on an archery lease than you can one that is primarily for rifles. This includes kids. With the decision to do away with the minimim poundage draw weight, practically any kid can bowhunt. A good example was at the recent LSBA deer hunt at the Palmer ranch where a 9 year old harvested an 8 pt.

Instead of trying to encourage all kids to become rifle hunters during archery season, why not encourage them to pick up a bow. My youngest son (who is now 29) remarked on one of his first bow hunts that "This (bowhunting) is a lot harder than hunting with a rifle, and a lot more fun."

Let's don't degrade an existing season, but rather encourage kids to bowhunt. Those that do, will be much more likely to become lifetime hunters which is really the desired goal. What about a "youth only" archery weekend the weekend before archery season starts. Now that might work toward hunter recruitment indeed.

[mesquitecountry]

That is a commendable thing to do but what you and others are advocating flies in the face of what those before you and me have done for the sport of bowhunting in Texas and that I can't condone.

Why is it that everytime someone that comes along that is younger that wants to improve something it is given a negative connotation Bill?

I know this is far fetched but it is an analogy not really pertinent but an analogy nonetheless.

Slavery was supposedly a great thing at one time, well we all know for a fact that it was one of the most devastating misuse of power in history. Not comparing the two but just playing the devils advocate.

I'm not for opening october to all hunters with rifles and I'm glad we have a bow season in Texas. But the youth are our future and all I hear is I dont want guns blasting around me shooting "my" deer. I'm not saying this is the answer to promote hunting. Probably wont even work. But we must do something.

Let's don't degrade an existing season, but rather encourage kids to bowhunt. Those that do, will be much more likely to become lifetime hunters which is really the desired goal. What about a "youth only" archery weekend the weekend before archery season starts. Now that might work toward hunter recruitment indeed.

Tomme,

Oddly enough I agree with you on this last paragraph. I think that would drive up bowhunting opportunities and recruitment.

Retension is really a case by case issue. Some people will just stop. It's like the unemployment rate. You always have some that want to but choose not to.

In regards to your reference of your son. In all actuality he is not the demographic we are chasing. Really we should not focus on the kids that we know are going to hunt in some form or another.

You see it as degrading. I see it as an opportunity.

[Tomme]

Mesquite you said

"In regards to your reference of your son. In all actuality he is not the demographic we are chasing. Really we should not focus on the kids that we know are going to hunt in some form or another."

You added

"You see it as degrading. I see it as an opportunity."


Mesquite, I have four kids, all tried hunting with a rifle. Only one took up bowhunting and he is the only one that still hunts, so you are wrong when you say that this is not the demographic we are chasing. If there hadn't been an archery season he never would have tried bowhunting and I would have no kids that still hunt.

As you know I pointed to the degrading of the archery season due to an intrusion of rifle hunters. I think that it readily and logically apparent to those of us who have had to hunt on small acreages. I regularly hunted and introduced others to hunting on my Texas vet tract of 35 acres in Burnet county. Lots of deer (small, but lots of deer). And yes putting rifle hunters on the next small acreage tract would have degraded the heck out of the season.

You say that you see it as an opportunity, but you failed to point out why that is the case. I asked previously, why if kids already have the opportunity to deer hunt with a rifle on weekends in November, December and January plus a weekend in October that they need the other October weekends. You failed to answer that question.

Plenty of opportunities for youth rifle hunting for deer already exist plus many more opportunities to take a kid squirrel hunting, rabbit hunting etc. You haven't given any arguments for why these weekends are needed.

Let me make a suggestion to you. Go to Parks and Wildlife and propose that only youth be allowed to hunt with a rifle for the first nine days of the rifle (general season). That's the first two weekends plus the intervening weekdays. If you truly believe in more youth rifle opportunities at any cost then you will support this even though it takes away from your season. But hey don't look at it as taking away or degrading your season, look at it as an opportunity.

I imagine you'll say that this isn't the same as this doesn't allow people to hunt during that time. I've got news for you, putting hunters with rifles right next door to my small archery stand doesn't allow me to hunt either.

We don't need 4 more youth hunt weekends. I don't believe it will do much to recruit youth hunters. It will hurt the archery season.

[LostHawg]

Welcome aboard Omni.

As to the rifle hunting in October weekend thing.

The LSBA is a bowhunting organization in the endeavor to promote and preserve bowhunting. It only makes sense that our intent is to preserve the archery season. Allowing the use of rifles during the archery season is not doing that.

And yes, we are pursuing getting more youth involved in hunting. Look at all the work Ronny and them did in concert with Palmer to get those kids on stand. How about our efforts at the Expo and the various shows. Look what Dena and Bob are doing? How about Kevin Hilbig? That guy has bent over backwards for the kids. Buff? Shoot, we've put as much or more effort in this preservation of our short 30 days than any other organization does for the other 335.

I say no to rifle weekends and no to extending the rifle season. October is for archery.

Not to mention 3D.

[mesquitecountry]

You say that you see it as an opportunity, but you failed to point out why that is the case. I asked previously, why if kids already have the opportunity to deer hunt with a rifle on weekends in November, December and January plus a weekend in October that they need the other October weekends. You failed to answer that question.

It is an opportunity for more days make it easier for more youth and their families to get a "headstart". Kids deserve a head start as much as anyone. Why not give them a chance to kill a good buck before every tom dick and joe blast a buck on your neighboring 35 acres. They're going to die most likely anyway. Why not give kids a chance.

Mesquite, I have four kids, all tried hunting with a rifle. Only one took up bowhunting and he is the only one that still hunts, so you are wrong when you say that this is not the demographic we are chasing. If there hadn't been an archery season he never would have tried bowhunting and I would have no kids that still hunt.

If your kids wouldnt have tried bowhunting then that is your duty as their leader. If they fall out of hunting then somewhere along the line we failed them by not giving them enough. But your children are not the demographic we are looking for. Your children, being that you have an extremely proud hunting back ground would be almost guaranteed to hunt. We as a group need kids that would never pick up a gun or bow and take them to hunt. Picking up every person that PETA has missed. That's who we need. I'm sorry but your's and my kids or anyone else that's on this site or tbh are not the kids that we need to worry about. We need numbers.

Let me make a suggestion to you. Go to Parks and Wildlife and propose that only youth be allowed to hunt with a rifle for the first nine days of the rifle (general season). That's the first two weekends plus the intervening weekdays. If you truly believe in more youth rifle opportunities at any cost then you will support this even though it takes away from your season. But hey don't look at it as taking away or degrading your season, look at it as an opportunity.

I'm a bowhunter not just a rifle hunter. My preferred method always has been bowhunting. I'm all for taking away from my season. I just think it should be done in bow season! General season is already set in place. Why would we change what they already have. We need to provide more opportunities. More opportunities equals more time in the woods for kids. Dont go into the well their parents should be going during general season. That is irrelevant. If we picked up 5 extra youth hunters because of this than we did our job. That's 5 more than we didnt have yesterday.

I imagine you'll say that this isn't the same as this doesn't allow people to hunt during that time. I've got news for you, putting hunters with rifles right next door to my small archery stand doesn't allow me to hunt either.

Thank you for proving my point. Selfishness will be the death of our sport. You dont want youth to hunt to be able to shoot a deer next door to you. You dont want them to shoot crossbows. You dont want anyone hunting on "your" month. If you dont like your lease and the neighbors are screwing it up then do what any american does. Work harder and get something you like. Somebody could start gun hunting MLD next door to you tomorrow and their not a thing you could do about it. Wouldnt you at least rather have kids smiling with a buck or someone shooting 10 deer for culls that you would have been proud to kill.

At least you have been steady in your ideology. You only want "your" way.

This is why our sport is dying. Because selfishness and greed, because we as a whole are unwilling to give up anything of "ours" to carry on the torch.

I've hunted low fence, low population, small acreage. Does it suck. Yes! If you dont like the way your neighbors hunt get up and go talk to them. TPWD has done an excellent job putting in antler restrictions and improving populations. Now it is up to us to make sure we continue on the heritage.

[BearOmni]

Originally Posted by mesquitecountry

I'm a bowhunter not just a rifle hunter. My preferred method always has been bowhunting. I'm all for taking away from my season. I just think it should be done in bow season! General season is already set in place. Why would we change what they already have.

Umm, Archery season is already set in place too.

I dont know this for a fact, but have been told that bow hunters proposed a self imposed "tax" (archery stamp) to be allowed to hunt in Oct. This was done so hunts could take place without competition from gun hunters.

As has been said MANY times already, there are already special youth only days, and they can hunt ALL season anyway. Why let them hunt with a gun during October? If they want to hunt in Oct, teach them to shoot a bow.

I've hunted low fence, low population, small acreage. Does it suck. Yes! If you dont like the way your neighbors hunt get up and go talk to them. TPWD has done an excellent job putting in antler restrictions and improving populations. Now it is up to us to make sure we continue on the heritage.

I agree 100%, we should strive to continue our bow hunting heritage to kids and adults during Oct and all season long. We should also strive to continue our hunting heritage during all of general season using all legal means.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by mesquitecountry

...........Selfishness will be the death of our sport............

You only want "your" way.

This is why our sport is dying. Because selfishness and greed, because we as a whole are unwilling to give up anything of "ours" to carry on the torch.

I find you arrogant when you continue to call someone selfish because they don't agree with you that a already in place season should be done away with. You don't know any of us. And yes, putting youth gun in the archery only WILL do away with it.

I don't think you want to discuss the real reasons for hunting numbers falling in Texas. Youth hunting is not the answer because it (youth hunting) is and has been going on for several years in Texas.

Originally Posted by mesquitecountry

Why is it that everytime someone that comes along that is younger that wants to improve something it is given a negative connotation Bill?

I know this is far fetched but it is an analogy not really pertinent but an analogy nonetheless.

Slavery was supposedly a great thing at one time, well we all know for a fact that it was one of the most devastating misuse of power in history. Not comparing the two but just playing the devils advocate.
.............

Travis I've looked and I see nowhere that I brought up your age. The "improvement" is your opinion only and weak at that.

You are right, I see no analogy there at all.

Originally Posted by BearOmni

Umm, Archery season is already set in place too.

I dont know this for a fact, but have been told that bow hunters proposed a self imposed "tax" (archery stamp) to be allowed to hunt in Oct. This was done so hunts could take place without competition from gun hunters..................

You seem to have skipped right over this one.

I said I was done before, I truly am now. Continue your stirring.

[LostHawg]

Shoot, they could even make January 15 through February 15 a youth season. There are just too many alternatives for P&W that they don't even need to mess with October.