For reasons previously stated and others, my intent is to see that the 81st legislature legalizes crossbows for archery season. It makes sense on a lot of levels.

Where are all the great unwashed masses that want this?

I fail to see the logic behind the assumption that new hunters will flock to the woods just because crossbows are legal during archery season. A crossbow enthusiast most likely has a crossbow now and uses it during the general season. Are these crossbow owners/hunters lobbying the TF&G for this change in law? Who is leading this charge? I think we all know who is behind this effort.

I've pounded the keys on my keyboard many times on this subject and due to my stance have been labeled anti crossbow, elitist, etc. Ridiculous, I just feel the current weapon restrictions in their respective seasons is correct. I've never been titled an elitist because I feel that hunting with handguns should not be allowed in the archery season why am I so because of my position on crossbows? I think the true enemy is the crossbow manufacturers who are trying to label those opposed to the crossbow during archery season as being guilty of division within the hunting community.

Those that are quick to cast that label must feel that we should abandon our position and principles and fall in line with there point of view so not to become susceptible to the anti hunters and weaken our ranks. When we fall for this rhetoric and buy into that flawed logic, we are truly in trouble. We should not all march hand in hand towards the lowest common denominator. There comes a time when you have to stand your ground and not abandon your principles. When you start moving the line in the sand, you've lost.

If the majority of bowhunters were in favor of crossbows during the archery season, I would accept it (not like it) and deal with it. This is not the case though. It is my opinion that a minority with questionable motivation are beating this drum for change.

Oh yeah, and there's one thing you can do with a compound that you can NOT do with a crossbow. You can shoot it almost identically to that of a bow built by the Caddos or Osage.

I don't have a problem with a person who chooses a compound as archery equipment. I do think that comparing the use of a crossbow to that of a longbow or compound is reaching.

Trailboss, Dena, thanks for weighing in. ;)

Brad...

Don, I don't want to be confrontational and am personally tired of rehashing this debate online...but for the record you are one of these people. Like the family members of the TV hunter who went before the House Committee hearing HB-1334 as "concerned individuals", you accept money from Horton and work for them to promote crossbows through your magazine. I know how you personally try to influence your magazine's bowhunting contributors to use and promote crossbows as Archery Weapons...and have even discouraged some (myself included) from writing bowhunting/archery articles.

People who stand to gain financially through this type of legislation should not be the people pushing it...but you came here promising/threatening to get us next time! Yet, you portray the archery community as hostile in this cartoon you ran in '04? [see below]

Simply put this is not an anti-crossbow crusade for us, Don. It is our reaction to this crusade being driven by crossbow manufacturers across North America....not just in Texas. It is also the reaction of every other State/Provincial Bowhunting rights organization in North America, the North American Bowhunters Rights Coalition, the Pope & Young Club, the Professional Bowhunters Society, the National Bowhunter's Education Foundation, etc...we must all be too slow to understand "logical" thought. ;)

No one wants to kick you out, (though a minority) there are some LSBA members who share your view on this issue. We value their overall support and opinions as much as any member's but our actions must represent the majority of our membership. I would welcome the opportunity to share a campfire with you sometime soon, hunt some hogs...and if you insist we can discuss this topic. Maybe if we'd both learn that we are not one another's enemy, we can work together to find a solution that will satisfy both sides of this debate.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43...tfgcartoon.jpg

Welcome, and this is a sensitive topic for me so I'll keep it to basics. Archers, must execute the shot in the presence of the game. This means plan the shot, DRAW in the presence of game and HOLD the weapon at draw until the shot presents itself. Most Bows, even with 65-80% lettof, are hard to keep drawn while the game takes it's time meandering thru.
This is the SKILL of archers and the basics of a primitive weapon.

Xbows- are shoulder fired like a rifle, scoped for long distance shooting, high poundage, small bolt for extended range, and can be loaded and held loaded indefinately. This equated to me a modern weapon.

My main objection is that public lands cannot withstand the hunting pressure of an extended MODERN weapon season. We public land hunters have very low sucess numbers, see few deer and not many public land deer reach maturity of 4-8 years. A global passage of bill 1334 would increase pressure on the public deer herd and reduce the public herds age/maturity.

X-bows on controlled access properties are a different issue based on philosophical ideas which I will not present my views on

Chances are he would not get a shot off in a real hunting environment. He would learn and gain skill thru trial and error and work ethic. I think it sums up to willing to go thru the learning process.

Its hunting season, not killing season.


So, I would gather that you feel Pope And Young regulations are draconian and elitist

biggen: "Oh yea why is the OL poll a farce? Enlighten me!"

Because anyone can vote multiple times, not just once. A mass email went out encouraging recipients to do exactly that (vote multpiple times) "to send a clear anti-crossbow message."

The poll reflects nothing more than how many times X number of people voted, not how many voted, and it in no way reflects general opinion about crossbows.

That's why it is a farce.

DZ

grizz: "Chances are he would not get a shot off in a real hunting environment. He would learn and gain skill thru trial and error and work ethic. I think it sums up to willing to go thru the learning process.
...
So, I would gather that you feel Pope And Young regulations are draconian and elitist."

Let' see, since effective range is identical between a crossbow and a compound, then chances are he wouldn't get off a shot with a crossbow, either. So, what is the problem with him being in the woods with a crossbow?

Yes, P&Y is elitist and exclusionary. However, P&Y is a private organization (actually a "club" by definition), so they can do anything they like and it is irrelevant because it affects only members, not the hunting population at large. The Texas Parks & Wildlife Department and laws appertaining thereto are a different matter. I can choose or not choose to pay P&Y dues, be a member, and thus follow its rules when hunting. I do not have that option with TPWD.

So, it doesn't matter if P&Y is elitist.

I should have read this first. Would have saved me some typing.

Good G2!!! Glad your on the case :P

We can disagree on the effective range comparison for now because range is not the issue. It

This is so full of holes I hardly know where to begin.

"This is the SKILL of archers and the basics of a primitive weapon. "

No it isn't, this is about upper body strength. Skill has nothing to do with it.

"...shoulder fired like a rifle..."

If you use a mechanical release, sight pins, string peep, and stabilizer with a modern compound, dump all those and go to a "slick" bow and I will give you that one.

"...scoped for long distance shooting..."

Define "long distance." Max effective distance with a crossbow is 40 yards, same as a compound.

"...high poundage..."

They have to be because of the shorter bolt and stroke length in order to achieve the same velocity as a compound (300 fps, give or take 10).


"...small bolt for extended range..."

No, the shorter bolt/arrow is so that the bow does not wind up being five feet long. Has nothing to do with range.

"...and can be loaded and held loaded indefinately..."

So can a compound under existing TPWD rules.

"This equated to me a modern weapon."

Lets see, the crossbow has been around since, what, 600 BC? Yep, that's one modern weapon. Also, see the "shoulder fired" bit above, then we'll discuss "modern" weapons.

"My main objection is that public lands cannot withstand the hunting pressure of an extended MODERN weapon season. "

The crossbow is not a modern weapon. Further, in states with long histories of crossbow use, there is no difference in harvest rates between crossbows and "conventional" bows.

"We public land hunters have very low sucess numbers, see few deer and not many public land deer reach maturity of 4-8 years."

Not in counties with the 13-inch rule.

"A global passage of bill 1334 would increase pressure on the public deer herd and reduce the public herds age/maturity."

Virtually all public lands are administered by TPWD and hunting is by permit. Limited permits equals the same hunting pressure.

DZ

"There are already provisions in place for new folks who want to hunt with a crossbow; in the general season."

Not if they want to hunt an extended season.

"Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument with the new super-combo license. Especially since Parks and Wildlife never kept a tally of the stamps in the first place."

Then "conventional" bowhunters need to stop harping abput the season "they pay/paid" for.

DZ

My magazine does not "accept" advertising from any manufacturer--we *solicit* it. It is how we make our livings. That is no more relevant to the issue at hand than is the Gulf Fisheries Counsel gutting the recreational snapper fishery in favor of commercial fishing. Because we solicit advertising from recreational fishing equipment manufacturers, should we be silent on this issue as well?

Sorry, Joey, that is at best a straw-man argument, or perhaps more properly a red herring.

And I reiterate agin that it was a schoolboy email from a "conventional" bowhunter that pused me over the edge on this. It made me even more of an "anti-anti" than I already was. I am fed up with elitism, calls for bans of this or that method or means that that is perfectly legitimate and ethical--and exclusionary rhetoric, regardless of it purpose or origin.

DZ

"Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument with the new super-combo license. Especially since Parks and Wildlife never kept a tally of the stamps in the first place."

Then "conventional" bowhunters need to stop harping abput the season "they pay/paid" for.

DZ[/quote]

Just because TPWD doesn't keep a count doesn't change the fact that we paid for the stamps.

Trailboss

"I've never been titled an elitist because I feel that hunting with handguns should not be allowed in the archery season why am I so because of my position on crossbows?"

Because handguns are firearms,not bows.

DZ

grizz:"Is it your position that Public Land deer are mature, numerous and need to be culled at a greater rate?"

Strawman argument, I never said that.

My position is that there is *no* logical or biological reason to disallow crossbows during arhhery season; that allowing them would increase hunter recruitment/retention, and would increase license sales and therefore help fund TPWD.

Since crossbows on public land seems to be your primary concern, there is a simple remedy for that: disallow them on public land. Similar restrictions are already in place on many public lands (restricted to shotguns only in some cases, shotguns, muzzle loaders, and bows in others, etc.) Since most hunting in Texas is on private land, such restrictions would affect the fewest hunters while freeing the rest to hunt private lands with crossbows during archery season.

DZ

Trailboss: "Just because TPWD doesn't keep a count doesn't change the fact that we paid for the stamps."

Crossbow hunters will buy archery stamps, too.

Besides, *you* are the one who wrote that "Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument..."

DZ

grizz: We can disagree on the effective range comparison for now because range is not the issue. It

I

Since crossbows on public land seems to be your primary concern, there is a simple remedy for that: disallow them on public land. Similar restrictions are already in place on many public lands (restricted to shotguns only in some cases, shotguns, muzzle loaders, and bows in others, etc.) Since most hunting in Texas is on private land, such restrictions would affect the fewest hunters while freeing the rest to hunt private lands with crossbows during archery season.

DZ[/quote]

Then I have no further argument pro/con except my philosophical one which is definitional. Since I don't lease, I will defer to others to standup and support thier hunting situation.

BTW, Thank you for posting here and discussing this issue. I was unaware of the Draw assist mechanism being within the current rules.......

You misunderstood, the neophyte would have a greater opportunity TO get off a shot. More shots on animals taken. Higher harvest numbers overall.

its the new bowhunter (without draw assist) that has a higher hurdle to getting an arrow off the string.

Don, you may not think that it's relevant, I do. I remember our candid conversations from 4 years ago on this topic and know that you take the commitment beyond just another ad in your magazine...and that your disdain for us (bowhunters) on this issue was rooted long before any "schoolboy" e-mail you recently received. (See cartoon you published from 10/2004 again)

I guess we can just add the significance of your relationship with crossbow manufacturers to the growing list of things we disagree on. ;)

I've met other individuals in your exact position (TV/magazine guys with sponsors/advertisers who manufacture x-bows) and some of them have been asked to get involved the way you choose to do. I respect them greatly (even if we personally disagree on this issue) for not using their celebrity status or posing as "concerned individuals" to lobby this cause but rather trying to let the sportsmen of Texas influence this legislature.

I also know a few bowhunters that feel just as you do and who have no financial connections to any crossbow manufacturers. I listen to these individuals and respect their views (even though we disagree) much more than the opinions of people who don't bowhunt and are paid to promote crossbows.

I tire of fellow hunters attacking the bowhunting community (calling us elitist, zealots, etc...) for simply defending our sport's future and trying to preserve 30 years of Texas tradition for future generations.

I guess it boils down to what's important to us as individuals...some of us want the "bowhunting" that we pass on to future generations to resemble the "bowhunting" that we were introduced to and have come to love.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43...ynfulldraw.jpg

For others it's very important to lead this push to change the definition of a sport that you admittedly don't participate in??? Yet, you feel the need to "fix" us and right some 30+ years of injustice? Why?

If anyone has earned the right to have a hand in sculpting the future of the Archery Season in Texas, it's the bowhunters of Texas.

BTW, my cell # is 469-360-9626...feel free to call me if you wish to but this keyboard joisting is getting silly.

grizz:
"This is the SKILL of archers and the basics of a primitive weapon. "

"No offense but I am beginning to think this is getting disingenuous, Deer are geared to detect movement. No movement, the less chance for detection. The further away the deer is when the movement occurs, the less chance of detection. Drawing in the presence of the game is an integral component to

In my uneducated opinion this has degraded into something not unlike politics. I personally don't want cross bows, muzzle loaders or guns in October. I welcome them all in November and December. That is my opinion. One man, one vote. You would be about as likely to get me to vote for Ted Kennedy as to support Cross bows. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't care why you want them, I don't and you can't make me. :lol:

[quote:d0b34729d6="DZaidle"]
I contend that harvest rates are harvest rates via weaponology, venue be damned.

Sorry, but TPWD biologists have not yet deemed this lame arcument worthy of study, at leas to my knowledge.

"You seem intent on dodging my primary argument, will MORE Public Land deer be killed?"

No, I never said that.

"You have said it

Regardless of what happens with the law - I take comfort in knowing I don't have to allow them on my ranch! :)

Trailboss

And that, sir, is your perogative. :wink:

DZ

Grizz, I do not disdain you. Gawd, man, many was the year I was where you profess to be. Now that I am economically/socially positioned to hunt anywhere I please anytime I want, I cannot because of business/ethical commitments.

I wishe you well, and my hope that you truly understand the caveat: "Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever." You are clearly not stupid (beyond learning/hope), but mildly ignorant (not aware of certain knowledge, capable of excellence and learning).

I wish you the best.

DZ

"mildly ignorant" :lol: :lol: now thats funny right there. poor ol grizz. See there, We are not all stupid just Mildly Ignorant :lol: :lol: :lol: . Dzaidle I truly enjoy reading stuff posted by the few Smart people :lol: :lol:

Personally, I rather enjoy being mildly ignorant. Means I still have room for growth. ;) I hope those who are perfectly knowledgable don't get too bored waiting on me. :lol:

I guess if I had not always been so dat gum pretty, I would have learned more growing up :lol:

Don't worry Buff, we know there is a man of substance behind all that pretty! :shock: :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I know how you feel Marty. :P

Kill any pigs this weekend?

:?:

Zaidle,
You want help editing your posts to get the quotations correctly formatted let me know... :lol: I'm not an editor, but I do know a little... :roll:

...not much, just a little. Don't go asking me nomenclature. I'll come up short everytime. ;)

I've said it before, I'll say it again I oppose crossbows during archery season for two reasons

#1 because the whole basis of archery is draw in the presence of game, you have to outwit that animal very very close to you by pulling back your bow without it detecting you, and this is a very hard skill to master. The crossbow (and drawloc) totally eliminates this.

#2 Allowing crossbows open up archery season to allowing other primitive arms like muzzleloaders in the future, after all a crossbow is really just a bow rifle hybrid.

The medical term I think is; [b:c486871b4d]PO