X-bow poll

[biggen]

http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=337390&messages=8&forum=2

Maybe we should send this to some reps!!

[Mike Harr]

Duly noted.
Almost 700K people have voted in the Outdoor Life poll with a whopping 76% voting no for crossbows!!

[BUFF]

wow

[Hot4huntin]

Good information, Brad!

This morning it is up to 77.6% against crossbows being allowed during archery season with 724742 people voting.

[DZaidle]

Duly noted.
Almost 700K people have voted in the Outdoor Life poll with a whopping 76% voting no for crossbows!!

That OL poll is a meaningless farce.

Someone, presumably an LSBA member, emailed me with several questions. The questions and my answers appear below. I would be interested in reading the responses of other LSBA members to my position.

Don Zaidle
Editor-in-Chief
Texas Fish & Game magazine

"Can you please explain your logic to me regarding crossbows in the archery season?"

There is no valid reason to *not* use crossbows during the archery season. Effective range and "killing power" are the same. Stealth requirements are the same. Success/harvest/kill rates are the same. The only arguments are philosophical or, in some cases, religious. Read carefully the rhetoric of "dedicated" bowhunters and you will find it amounts to a belief system that invokes terms like "morals" and "ethics" and "creed" (your word). Many bowhunters (including Ted Nugent) liken bowhunting to a "spiritual experience," which no doubt it is to many, and that is fine. However, when you start trying to impose your belief system/religion on others by weight of law, that is just plain wrong. If you want to have a religious experience in the woods, that's fine, too--until you start trying to exclude others from the "cathedral" because they do not adhere to your belief system. The "cathedral" belongs to all the people of Texas, not just "dedicated" bowhunters.

"Don is not a bowhunter."

Back when I had the time to devote to it, I was the most dedicated bowhunter you can possibly imagine. I eschewed even sights (on a compound), let alone mechanical releases, stabilizers, and other gadgetry. I practiced daily; I had calluses between my right index and ring fingers despite the three-fingered glove. I still-hunted, and hunted (occasionally) from treestands. I spent hundreds of hours each year performing pre-season scouting, scent-proofing my hunting gear/clothes, tuning my bow, practicing with field points and broadheads, sharpening my broadheads (I used only solid one-piece heads as the most reliable and unlikely to break or otherwise fail on striking bone), reading everything I could find about the art and science of bowhunting (Chuck Adams was my hero), et cetera ad nauseum. I once even went so far as to eat a strict vegetarian diet for two weeks prior to the opening of bow season to test the theory that not consuming meat changes ones scent signature to that of a herbivore rather than a carnivore, hence reducing the risk of betrayal by scent. Anybody who claims "Don is not a bowhunter" is either ignorant, a liar, or just plain full of the stuff I used to step in intentionally to help mask my scent signature when walking to my blind. I stopped bowhunting because I no longer had the time to dedicate to practice and keeping my gear in top shape, and therefore felt it improper to continue bowhunting. Does that not suggest a higher ethic on my part--perhaps the ethic of a "true" bowhunter?

"...he will never understand a bowhunter or the creed they have or their lifelong commitment to the inherent challenges of archery."

I understand all too well. See previous paragraph. As for the "lifelong commitment"--so what? Why should that preclude the use of crossbows during the archery season? How would someone hunting with a crossbow impact that "lifelong commitment"? Is it that the crossbow hunter is perceived as not as committed or dedicated? Even if true, I again ask, so what? Is it perhaps because the bowhunter with the "lifelong commitment" feels as if a crossbow-wielding "heretic" has entered his cathedral and desecrated it?


"Bowhunting is a heritage with a self funded season from the beginning and bowhunter's are not willing to let that go..."

Nobody is asking anybody to "let go" of anything. All I am asking is to allow more hunter participation (a good thing) which yields more license sales (also a good thing) and stop with the elitist b.s. manifested as exclusionary bigotry based on a person's hunting arm of choice. *Nothing* would change except you might--*might*--see a few hunters sitting in treestands with crossbows in their laps. Further, almost all hunting in Texas is on private land. Let's say I have a season lease that only my family and I hunt. Who would be affected if my family and I hunt that lease during archery season with crossbows? I am not sure what you mean by "self funded," but a crossbow hunter buys the same license, pays the same Pittman-Robertson taxes on his gear, and in every other conceivable way "funds" his participation exactly as a "conventional" bowhunter.

"... Don sees it as fighting amongst a group..."

Which is precisely what it is, and it is damaging to hunting in general. It feeds the anti-hunting machine (antis love nothing more than hunters attacking hunters--divide and conquer, and all that; and when a hunter attacks another hunter's method or philosophy, is that not itself anti-hunting?). It is especially maddening when the fighting is over something as insipid and trivial as using crossbows during archery season: a crossbow uses energy stored in a flexible bow to propel an arrow--it's a friggin' bow! It is mounted to a stock and has a trigger. Big deal. Most "traditional" bows have intricate cable and pulley systems, glow-in-the-dusk sights, a mechanical release--with a *trigger*, no less!--a stabilizer, string peep, any one of a variety of technologically advanced rests, and hurls arrows made of space-age materials tipped with laser-cut or complex mechanical broadheads. Please do not give me the "traditional" argument unless you shoot a longbow and flint-tipped wooden arrows.

"...but what if archer's went out and petitioned to have a shorter rifle season for a longer archery only season." Is anybody doing that? Of course not. That is a silly straw-man argument irrelevant to the issue. And if anyone *did* propose that, I would call them elitist SOBs and fight them tooth and nail. I would also fight any proposal to shorten or otherwise curtail the bow (or any other) season for *any* reason other than as a temporary measure for protection of the resource.

"...fear that more uneducated hunters will be in the field shooting a weapon much more lethal at much higher distances."

On what is the fear of "uneducated" hunters based? Uneducated/neophyte hunters are everywhere using all kinds of hunting arms--including "conventional" bows. To propose that crossbow hunters are inherently "uneducated" is prejudicial and bigoted. Further, crossbows are *not* "much more lethal" nor capable of "much higher distances" relative to a compound. Compared to a longbow, yes, but not to a compound. And even if the crossbow was "much more lethal," why is that a bad thing? Would not that enhanced lethality reduce the crippling shots you say are among the fears of bowhunters about crossbows?

"...unpracticed hunters in the field not knowing shot placement etc..."

Again, why the prejudicial assumption that crossbow hunters do not practice or know about game anatomy and shot placement? Does the same assumption apply to rifle, handgun, and black powder hunters? If so, why does the bowhunting community not publicly and openly castigate "unpracticed" rifle/handgun/black powder hunters? To fail to do so is hypocrisy.

"...we side the way the majority of our constituency feels based on polls."

What polls? Please cite a legitimate poll. Internet polls do not count because they are 100 percent meaningless. Witness the Outdoor Life "poll" that initiated this discussion: An anti-crossbowite sent out a mass-delivery email encouraging recipients to artificially inflate the OL poll in opposition to crossbows. Please cite a legitimate poll of the general hunting population, not just bowhunters--and most certainly not just LSBA members. After you do that, I will cite credible polls that refute everything your poll supports. In other words, polls are mostly meaningless.

Leopold:

[LostHawg]

Hello and good morning Mr. Zaidle,

We are each entitled to our opinions. I see yours is in opposition to the majority of those who are members of LSBA and this site. Its good to see a different point of view from time to time. Welcome to the site.

I do believe, however, the level of stealth required in my use of my longbow is a bit more challenging than that of the use of a crossbow.

As for the opposition to 1334; I don't remember the bill being made too public for scrutiny, rather rushed to the house for a quick semi-secret vote by bureaucrats who are removed from bowhunting.

If you don't have the time to devote to bowhunting, then how are we to deem your position as valid? By your own admission you took steps to remove the challenge of the hunt by pursuing upgrades to the simplicity of the "stick and string". I am hardly surprised that you would support the use of crossbows. Actually, from your citation of your bowhunting endeavors, your support stands in logic.

Again, welcome to the site. I'm looking forward to more of your input. Unless, of course, this is a one-time snipe on your part. I hope its not.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/losthawg/ABC%20Hunt/ABCHunt010.jpg
Great Plains longbow, Port Orford cedar arrow, Ribtek 2 blade cut on contact broadhead. As I haven't learned to knap yet, I'm still using manufactured cut on contact heads. But, I'm disadvancing myself daily. lol

[DZaidle]

I'm looking forward to more of your input. Unless, of course, this is a one-time snipe on your part. I hope its not.

No, not a "one-time snipe." I am most interested in learning more about something I do not understand: firece opposition to crossbows during archery season. I figured this would be the best place to learn.

DZ

[LostHawg]

Good, glad to have you. ;)

[BUFF]

welcome to the site and thanks for the well written post. :D My biggest concern is that it would have been a stepping stone law. If cross bows are legal then why not muzzle loaders. If muzzle loaders are legal then why not pistols and on and on. As far as I'm concerned I would have been embarrassed if we had not stood against this threat to bow hunting. The elitist title every one throws about does not bother me at all. I can live with that title, I have been called much worst :twisted:

[DZaidle]

welcome to the site and thanks for the well written post. :D My biggest concern is that it would have been a stepping stone law. If cross bows are legal then why not muzzle loaders. If muzzle loaders are legal then why not pistols and on and on. As far as I'm concerned I would have been embarrassed if we had not stood against this threat to bow hunting. The elitist title every one throws about does not bother me at all. I can live with that title, I have been called much worst :twisted:

Muzzleloaders, handguns, et al do not propel arrows via energy stored in a bent bow. Longbows, recurves, compounds, and crossbows do. Ergo, the aforementioned are *not* archery equipment and therefore ineligible for use during archery season. No reasoning person would think otherwise.

Elitism is fine so long as adherents do not try to impose their beliefs on the rest of us by weight of law. I eschew such efforts by anti-live-bait fishing elitists, anti-in-line muzzleloader elitists, and anti-crossbow elitists with equal disdain.

DZ

[DZaidle]

As far as I'm concerned I would have been embarrassed if we had not stood against this threat to bow hunting.:twisted:

Please elaborate on how allowing crossbows during archery season threatens bowhunting. I am truly interested, not being sarcastic.

DZ

[LostHawg]

welcome to the site and thanks for the well written post. :D My biggest concern is that it would have been a stepping stone law. If cross bows are legal then why not muzzle loaders. If muzzle loaders are legal then why not pistols and on and on. As far as I'm concerned I would have been embarrassed if we had not stood against this threat to bow hunting. The elitist title every one throws about does not bother me at all. I can live with that title, I have been called much worst :twisted:

You and me both Buff.

My biggest thing is that it is the getting away from the simplicity and challenge of the basic bow and arrow.

[DZaidle]

You and me both Buff.

My biggest thing is that it is the getting away from the simplicity and challenge of the basic bow and arrow.

Okay, that's fine and I can respect that--for you. But why would you object to someone else using a crossbow or--since you shoot a longbow--a tricked-out compound? There is nothing "basic" about a compound and its accoutrements, nor about a carbon-fiber arrow tipped with a laser-cut broadhead. So, do you think compound users are "getting away from the simplicity and challenge of the basic bow and arrow"? If not, why not?

DZ

[BUFF]

"I eschew such efforts by anti-live-bait fishing elitists, anti-in-line muzzleloader elitists, and anti-crossbow elitists with equal disdain. "

Wow you have a real pretty way with words. :shock:

My personal opinion is that any thing shoulder fired, with a trigger is a Gun. PS I'm not a big fan of inline muzzle loaders either.

[DZaidle]

"

Wow you have a real pretty way with words. :shock:

My personal opinion is that any thing shoulder fired, with a trigger is a Gun. PS I'm not a big fan of inline muzzle loaders either.

A way with words goes with the job description. :D

Sorry, guns go "boom!" and propel a projectile under impetus of expanding gases due to a chemical reaction. Bows do not--even shoulder-fired ones.

DZ

[DZaidle]

"...with a trigger is a Gun."

Lots of mechanical string releases have triggers. Does using one make a bow more gun-like? If so, should not they be banned?

DZ

[BUFF]

yes it makes it more "gun like" but it is a long way from a shoulder fired gun.

This gun fires arrows at about the same speed as a cross bow. Should it be legal? if not why?
http://www.buffsblackwidow.com/images/RIFLE1.jpg

[BUFF]

:( I have to make a run to Katy to help with an LSBA event. DZaidle I thank you for posting and did not want you to think I just ran out on you.
Thanks again
Buff

[DZaidle]

yes it makes it more "gun like" but it is a long way from a shoulder fired gun.

This gun fires arrows at about the same speed as a cross bow. Should it be legal? if not why?
http://www.buffsblackwidow.com/images/RIFLE1.jpg

Because as previously stated, a bow fires a projectile with energy stored in a bent limb via a string. This "arrow gun" obviously does not.

You seem very adamant about the "shoulder fired" factor. Is a crossbow "pistol" somehow more acceptable since it is not shoulder fired?

DZ

[DZaidle]

:( I have to make a run to Katy to help with an LSBA event. DZaidle I thank you for posting and did not want you to think I just ran out on you.
Thanks again
Buff

More than welcome. This is interesting, fun, and educational.

DZ

[Hot4huntin]

Welcome to the campfire!

TPWD defines archery equipment as hand held and hand drawn. Accordingly, crossbows are not archery equipment and thus, should not be used in archery season. LSBA does not oppose crossbows, but they need to be used in the General Season.

[DZaidle]

"TPWD defines archery equipment as hand held and hand drawn. Accordingly, crossbows are not archery equipment..."

For now, anyway. Expect that to change when the 81st Legislature convenes.


DZ

[LostHawg]

To some extint, yes. Its no secret here that I've argued the let-off thing. I caught a lot of flak over that one. ;) BUT, I can more readily accept a compound as being relative to a longbow, horsebow or recurve than I can a crossbow. Kind of difficult to climb up into your stand with a full drawn compound also, unless its fitted with a draw-loc which converts a compound into a vertical crossbow.

[DZaidle]

To some extint, yes. Its no secret here that I've argued the let-off thing. I caught a lot of flak over that one. ;) BUT, I can more readily accept a compound as being relative to a longbow, horsebow or recurve than I can a crossbow. Kind of difficult to climb up into your stand with a full drawn compound also, unless its fitted with a draw-loc which converts a compound into a vertical crossbow.

Again I ask: Why do you feel threatened by people hunting with crossbows during archery season? If you choose to use a a longbow, recurve, or whatever, that's fine, but why do you object so strongly to crossbows? Why do you want their use prohibited diring archery season? Who/what would be harmed?

[Trailboss]

With todays modern archery equipment, virtually anyone can buy a well made bow right off the shelf, set it up with accessories, tune it and be an excellent shot within minutes.

The difference comes when that person starts to hunt with it. Shooting at a static target is a whole different ball game from shooting at a whitetail deer that was born "wired"!

The skill of shooting is not near the issue of the skill of drawing a bow on a whitetail or other wild creature without being detected. Anyone that has bowhunted any time at all realizes that the hardest part of the process is getting the bow drawn undetected. And to that end, I feel the crossbow is a shortcut! And before you say it - I am also opposed to the use of draw lock devices in archery season.

Archery only season was created and set aside for those who dedicated the time to learn the skill of bowhunting as a reward for their efforts by allowing them time in the woods without competition from gun when game has not yet been spooked to the next county by gunfire.

I have no beef with crossbow shooters and think there is a place for them in the hunting world. I just don't believe that place is in the archery only season. If a person needs to shoot a crossbow due to physical limitations or disabilities - I'm fine with that and provisions are already in place for them to shoot a crossbow during archery season. For those that just want to shoot a crossbow, there are already provisions in place to allow this in the general season.

I see no reason to change the regulations to allow crossbows in archery only season.

Trailboss

[DZaidle]

Trailboss: "Archery only season was created and set aside for those who dedicated the time to learn the skill of bowhunting as a reward for their efforts by allowing them time in the woods without competition from gun when game has not yet been spooked to the next county by gunfire."

So, do you have a problem with a newbie hitting the woods with his brand new bow? He's unskilled, inexperienced, unpracticed, and maybe knows nothing about whitetail anatomy or shot placement. But is it okay for him to be in the woods hunting during archery season on the basis that he is using a "conventional" bow? And if you do object to him hunting without having "paid his dues" in practice and all that, how do you propose to identify him and keep him out?

DZ

[Trailboss]

If he's hunting with a bow he's under the same limitations as I am and requires the same skills to be effective.

Trailboss

[Hot4huntin]

This is my personal opinion only~

I believe in preserving and promoting bowhunting in Texas. Bowhunters before me fought hard to get a Special Archery Season. We've paid for the Special Season with an Archery Stamp since approximately 1974 and it is important that we preserve the tradition and pass on the heritage of bowhunting. I appreciate the efforts those bowhunters made and I believe that I owe it to them and future bowhunters to give back to the sport and to continue the rich heritage that they began. I don't believe that allowing other weapons to encroach on Archery Season benefits bowhunters or bowhunting.

Unfortunately, there will be some unskilled bowhunters that go into the field (just as there are gun hunters), but I don't think they will be in it for the long haul. One of the things that the LSBA does is promote Bowhunter Safety through the IBEP course. When a person becomes a member, they get a Bowhunters Education pamphlet to inform them about the course. Many of the EC members and others are dedicated IBEP Instructors who volunteer their time to teach bowhunting safety, responsibilty and ethics. Why? Because bowhunting and the safety of bowhunters is important to us!

With guns, muzzleloaders, crossbows, bows and knives already available with which to hunt, I seriously doubt that a large number of people will decide not to get into hunting because they cannot use a crossbow during archery season. However, if crossbows are allowed during archery season, I can see where some people will choose not to pick up a bow and that, my friend, will hurt bowhunting and its future. It is hard to pass on the heritage, if there is eventually no one to do it.

[DZaidle]

Trailboss: If he's hunting with a bow he's under the same limitations as I am and requires the same skills to be effective."

That still does not answer the questions: Is it okay for an unskilled, unpracticed, hunter to be in the woods hunting with a bow during archery season? And if not, how do you identify him and keep him out?

DZ

[DZaidle]

Hot4huntin: "...I seriously doubt that a large number of people will decide not to get into hunting because they cannot use a crossbow during archery season. However, if crossbows are allowed during archery season, I can see where some people will choose not to pick up a bow and that, my friend, will hurt bowhunting and its future. It is hard to pass on the heritage, if there is eventually no one to do it."

Put another way, some people will choose to pick up a crossbow and participate in hunting. That means more people who are hunters and therefore on "our side" at election time. That means more people buying archery stamps and putting money into bowhunting coffers. More people buying gear and accessories, thus swelling the Pittman-Robertson fund. More people with a reason to care about wildlife conservation. And if any of those people are youngsters, that means more kids accepting the hunting heritage and spending more time in the woods and less time playing video games or watching MTV.

DZ

[Hot4huntin]

Put another way, some people will choose to pick up a crossbow and participate in hunting.

They can already pick up a crossbow and participate in hunting.

LSBA will be hosting a free youth archery shoot at BPS in Katy tomorrow. We do a lot of shows that introduce kids to archery, which will hopefully get them out in front of the TV and away from the video games.

Thanks for your posts and sharing your opinions!

[Trailboss]

That still does not answer the questions: Is it okay for an unskilled, unpracticed, hunter to be in the woods hunting with a bow during archery season? And if not, how do you identify him and keep him out?

DZ

I don't think it's okay for any unskilled, unpracticed hunter to be in the woods regardless of the weapon they choose. A Hunter's Education course can go a long way toward preventing this.

How do you identify and keep them out? I'm not sure you can, but I fear a lot less for my life during archery only season.

When the decision was made several years ago to allow draw lock devices during archery only season, I stated that it would only be a matter of time before crossbows would also be allowed. That almost came to pass. And I'll go ahead and say it now - if crossbows are allowed, it will only be a matter of time before the season is changed to a "primative weapons" season and muzzle loaders will be allowed too. Just hide and watch - it'll happen.

Trailboss

[DZaidle]

Trailboss: "I don't think it's okay for any unskilled, unpracticed hunter to be in the woods regardless of the weapon they choose. A Hunter's Education course can go a long way toward preventing this.

How do you identify and keep them out? I'm not sure you can, but I fear a lot less for my life during archery only season.

When the decision was made several years ago to allow draw lock devices during archery only season, I stated that it would only be a matter of time before crossbows would also be allowed. That almost came to pass. And I'll go ahead and say it now - if crossbows are allowed, it will only be a matter of time before the season is changed to a "primative weapons" season and muzzle loaders will be allowed too. Just hide and watch - it'll happen."

Thanks, Trailboss, for that straight answer.

I think at least some of us can agree that crossbows in the archery season is inevitable. Therefore, wouldn't it make the most sense to accept it now--before it happens--and start the education process to ensure that those new hunters are educated, ethical hunters? It seems to me that would be in everyone's best interests--including "conventional" bowhunters.

By accepting crossbow hunters and sharing our knowledge, experiences, and wisdom, we just might find many of them migrating from the crossbow to a compound, recurve, or longbow. Fighting and insulting them only breeds enmity and resentment, and reinforces the "elitist snobs" perception, justifiably or not.

Unity as *hunters* buys us far more than diviseviness ever will.

I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said, "I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends. "

DZ

[LostHawg]

Put another way, some people will choose to pick up a crossbow and participate in hunting. That means more people who are hunters and therefore on "our side" at election time. That means more people buying archery stamps and putting money into bowhunting coffers. More people buying gear and accessories, thus swelling the Pittman-Robertson fund. More people with a reason to care about wildlife conservation. And if any of those people are youngsters, that means more kids accepting the hunting heritage and spending more time in the woods and less time playing video games or watching MTV.

DZ

There are already provisions in place for new folks who want to hunt with a crossbow; in the general season.

Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument with the new super-combo license. Especially since Parks and Wildlife never kept a tally of the stamps in the first place.

[tinman]

I think at least some of us can agree that crossbows in the archery season is inevitable. Therefore, wouldn't it make the most sense to accept it now...
Remind anyone else of the Clayton Williams quote? "If ____ is inevitable, just lay back and enjoy it.":)

Hi Don, good to see you posting but this debate was hashed out several weeks ago...it's over for now. Although I agree, it won't be over until the people pushing this agenda get what they want no matter who's opposed. Remember that if it were as simple as being out-numbered, we would have never had an Archery Season in the first place.

I share the concerns expressed by Trailboss and also worry about the long-term affects it could have on the future of bowhunting in Texas. That is the role of the LSBA, to promote and preserve bowhunting in Texas.

I've got a question for you, Don...

Why is it that many of the supporters of this type of legislation have ties of some form to the crossbow manufacturers...but don't always disclose that information when they crusade?

Welcome to the site, Don. You told me once on the phone that you'd previously been an LSBA member, I hope that you'll consider spending some time with us (both here and maybe even in the field)...you might see that we are not the enemy...we just don't agree on this issue.

[Trailboss]

By accepting crossbow hunters and sharing our knowledge, experiences, and wisdom, we just might find many of them migrating from the crossbow to a compound, recurve, or longbow.
DZ

I am more than willing to share knowledge, experiences, and wisdom (if I have any) and I already accept them. I just don't want them hunting in archery only season with a crossbow! :)


Trailboss

[biggen]

My crossbow goes boom ! Yes, I have a crossbow and have taken a deer with it! Don't like it and the reason I used it was on a place that the deer were overhunted and spooky and not having to draw was the BIG difference! Beyond that difference this is all just rhetoric! Oh yea why is the OL poll a farce? Enlighten me!

[DZaidle]

Tinman: "I've got a question for you, Don...

"Why is it that many of the supporters of this type of legislation have ties of some form to the crossbow manufacturers...but don't always disclose that information when they crusade?"

I have no idea. Who are some of these people?

The catalyst that pushed me over the edge on this was I received a mass email from somebody about the Outdoor Life poll, encouraging recipients to not just vote in the poll, but to vote multiple times (the poll is flawed and you *can* vote multiple times) to "send an anti-crossbow message." I am fed up with "antis"--anti-live bait fishermen, anti-AR15 hunters (witness the Jim Zumbo meltdown on that one), et cetera, and now, anti-crossbow crusaders.

For reasons previously stated and others, my intent is to see that the 81st legislature legalizes crossbows for archery season. It makes sense on a lot of levels.

I came here with the notion of learning why some bowhunters are so vehemently opposed to crossbows in archery season. So far, none of the reasons given make logical sense. It seems to be a religous thing (I'm serious), the Believers vs. the crossbow-wielding Heretics.

Anyway, I'll likely hang around until you guys kick me out, because I am still trying/wanting to learn and understand. I might not get there, but I will continue trying.

DZ

[Trailboss]

You've been given any number of reasons why bowhuners don't want crossbows used in archery only season. From that you should have learned what you came here for. Just because you don't agree with them does not make them invalid reasons.

No one here is bad-mouthing crossbow hunters. Crossbows are already allowed in the general hunting season and we are fine with that. It's just our opinion that they do not belong in archery only season.

Regardless of whether or not the legislature changes the description of archery equipment to include crossbows, it is my opinion that they are not and a lawmakers description will not change my belief in that. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still gonna be a pig.

Trailboss

[BUFF]

I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said, "I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends. "

DZ

Thanks for the warning. I don't think that plan worked out to good for Lincoln. I think I read some where they shot him :?

[BUFF]

For reasons previously stated and others, my intent is to see that the 81st legislature legalizes crossbows for archery season. It makes sense on a lot of levels.

Where are all the great unwashed masses that want this?

[Pick A Spot]

I fail to see the logic behind the assumption that new hunters will flock to the woods just because crossbows are legal during archery season. A crossbow enthusiast most likely has a crossbow now and uses it during the general season. Are these crossbow owners/hunters lobbying the TF&G for this change in law? Who is leading this charge? I think we all know who is behind this effort.

I've pounded the keys on my keyboard many times on this subject and due to my stance have been labeled anti crossbow, elitist, etc. Ridiculous, I just feel the current weapon restrictions in their respective seasons is correct. I've never been titled an elitist because I feel that hunting with handguns should not be allowed in the archery season why am I so because of my position on crossbows? I think the true enemy is the crossbow manufacturers who are trying to label those opposed to the crossbow during archery season as being guilty of division within the hunting community.

Those that are quick to cast that label must feel that we should abandon our position and principles and fall in line with there point of view so not to become susceptible to the anti hunters and weaken our ranks. When we fall for this rhetoric and buy into that flawed logic, we are truly in trouble. We should not all march hand in hand towards the lowest common denominator. There comes a time when you have to stand your ground and not abandon your principles. When you start moving the line in the sand, you've lost.

If the majority of bowhunters were in favor of crossbows during the archery season, I would accept it (not like it) and deal with it. This is not the case though. It is my opinion that a minority with questionable motivation are beating this drum for change.

[LostHawg]

Oh yeah, and there's one thing you can do with a compound that you can NOT do with a crossbow. You can shoot it almost identically to that of a bow built by the Caddos or Osage.

I don't have a problem with a person who chooses a compound as archery equipment. I do think that comparing the use of a crossbow to that of a longbow or compound is reaching.

Trailboss, Dena, thanks for weighing in. ;)

Brad...

[tinman]

I have no idea. Who are some of these people?

Don, I don't want to be confrontational and am personally tired of rehashing this debate online...but for the record you are one of these people. Like the family members of the TV hunter who went before the House Committee hearing HB-1334 as "concerned individuals", you accept money from Horton and work for them to promote crossbows through your magazine. I know how you personally try to influence your magazine's bowhunting contributors to use and promote crossbows as Archery Weapons...and have even discouraged some (myself included) from writing bowhunting/archery articles.

People who stand to gain financially through this type of legislation should not be the people pushing it...but you came here promising/threatening to get us next time! Yet, you portray the archery community as hostile in this cartoon you ran in '04? [see below]

Simply put this is not an anti-crossbow crusade for us, Don. It is our reaction to this crusade being driven by crossbow manufacturers across North America....not just in Texas. It is also the reaction of every other State/Provincial Bowhunting rights organization in North America, the North American Bowhunters Rights Coalition, the Pope & Young Club, the Professional Bowhunters Society, the National Bowhunter's Education Foundation, etc...we must all be too slow to understand "logical" thought. ;)

Anyway, I'll likely hang around until you guys kick me out...
No one wants to kick you out, (though a minority) there are some LSBA members who share your view on this issue. We value their overall support and opinions as much as any member's but our actions must represent the majority of our membership. I would welcome the opportunity to share a campfire with you sometime soon, hunt some hogs...and if you insist we can discuss this topic. Maybe if we'd both learn that we are not one another's enemy, we can work together to find a solution that will satisfy both sides of this debate.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/tinman5575/tfgcartoon.jpg

[grizz]

I'm looking forward to more of your input. Unless, of course, this is a one-time snipe on your part. I hope its not.

No, not a "one-time snipe." I am most interested in learning more about something I do not understand: firece opposition to crossbows during archery season. I figured this would be the best place to learn.

DZ

Welcome, and this is a sensitive topic for me so I'll keep it to basics. Archers, must execute the shot in the presence of the game. This means plan the shot, DRAW in the presence of game and HOLD the weapon at draw until the shot presents itself. Most Bows, even with 65-80% lettof, are hard to keep drawn while the game takes it's time meandering thru.
This is the SKILL of archers and the basics of a primitive weapon.

Xbows- are shoulder fired like a rifle, scoped for long distance shooting, high poundage, small bolt for extended range, and can be loaded and held loaded indefinately. This equated to me a modern weapon.

My main objection is that public lands cannot withstand the hunting pressure of an extended MODERN weapon season. We public land hunters have very low sucess numbers, see few deer and not many public land deer reach maturity of 4-8 years. A global passage of bill 1334 would increase pressure on the public deer herd and reduce the public herds age/maturity.

X-bows on controlled access properties are a different issue based on philosophical ideas which I will not present my views on

[grizz]

So, do you have a problem with a newbie hitting the woods with his brand new bow? He's unskilled, inexperienced, unpracticed, and maybe knows nothing about whitetail anatomy or shot placement. But is it okay for him to be in the woods hunting during archery season on the basis that he is using a "conventional" bow? And if you do object to him hunting without having "paid his dues" in practice and all that, how do you propose to identify him and keep him out?

DZ

Chances are he would not get a shot off in a real hunting environment. He would learn and gain skill thru trial and error and work ethic. I think it sums up to willing to go thru the learning process.

Its hunting season, not killing season.


So, I would gather that you feel Pope And Young regulations are draconian and elitist

[DZaidle]

biggen: "Oh yea why is the OL poll a farce? Enlighten me!"

Because anyone can vote multiple times, not just once. A mass email went out encouraging recipients to do exactly that (vote multpiple times) "to send a clear anti-crossbow message."

The poll reflects nothing more than how many times X number of people voted, not how many voted, and it in no way reflects general opinion about crossbows.

That's why it is a farce.

DZ

[DZaidle]

grizz: "Chances are he would not get a shot off in a real hunting environment. He would learn and gain skill thru trial and error and work ethic. I think it sums up to willing to go thru the learning process.
...
So, I would gather that you feel Pope And Young regulations are draconian and elitist."

Let' see, since effective range is identical between a crossbow and a compound, then chances are he wouldn't get off a shot with a crossbow, either. So, what is the problem with him being in the woods with a crossbow?

Yes, P&Y is elitist and exclusionary. However, P&Y is a private organization (actually a "club" by definition), so they can do anything they like and it is irrelevant because it affects only members, not the hunting population at large. The Texas Parks & Wildlife Department and laws appertaining thereto are a different matter. I can choose or not choose to pay P&Y dues, be a member, and thus follow its rules when hunting. I do not have that option with TPWD.

So, it doesn't matter if P&Y is elitist.

[grizz]

Don, I don't want to be confrontational and am personally tired of rehashing this debate online...but for the record you are one of these people.

I should have read this first. Would have saved me some typing.

Good G2!!! Glad your on the case :P

[grizz]

Let' see, since effective range is identical between a crossbow and a compound, then chances are he wouldn't get off a shot with a crossbow, either. So, what is the problem with him being in the woods with a crossbow?.

We can disagree on the effective range comparison for now because range is not the issue. It

[DZaidle]

I'm looking forward to more of your input. Unless, of course, this is a one-time snipe on your part. I hope its not.

No, not a "one-time snipe." I am most interested in learning more about something I do not understand: firece opposition to crossbows during archery season. I figured this would be the best place to learn.

DZ

Welcome, and this is a sensitive topic for me so I'll keep it to basics. Archers, must execute the shot in the presence of the game. This means plan the shot, DRAW in the presence of game and HOLD the weapon at draw until the shot presents itself. Most Bows, even with 65-80% lettof, are hard to keep drawn while the game takes it's time meandering thru.
This is the SKILL of archers and the basics of a primitive weapon.

Xbows- are shoulder fired like a rifle, scoped for long distance shooting, high poundage, small bolt for extended range, and can be loaded and held loaded indefinately. This equated to me a modern weapon.

My main objection is that public lands cannot withstand the hunting pressure of an extended MODERN weapon season. We public land hunters have very low sucess numbers, see few deer and not many public land deer reach maturity of 4-8 years. A global passage of bill 1334 would increase pressure on the public deer herd and reduce the public herds age/maturity.

X-bows on controlled access properties are a different issue based on philosophical ideas which I will not present my views on

This is so full of holes I hardly know where to begin.

"This is the SKILL of archers and the basics of a primitive weapon. "

No it isn't, this is about upper body strength. Skill has nothing to do with it.

"...shoulder fired like a rifle..."

If you use a mechanical release, sight pins, string peep, and stabilizer with a modern compound, dump all those and go to a "slick" bow and I will give you that one.

"...scoped for long distance shooting..."

Define "long distance." Max effective distance with a crossbow is 40 yards, same as a compound.

"...high poundage..."

They have to be because of the shorter bolt and stroke length in order to achieve the same velocity as a compound (300 fps, give or take 10).


"...small bolt for extended range..."

No, the shorter bolt/arrow is so that the bow does not wind up being five feet long. Has nothing to do with range.

"...and can be loaded and held loaded indefinately..."

So can a compound under existing TPWD rules.

"This equated to me a modern weapon."

Lets see, the crossbow has been around since, what, 600 BC? Yep, that's one modern weapon. Also, see the "shoulder fired" bit above, then we'll discuss "modern" weapons.

"My main objection is that public lands cannot withstand the hunting pressure of an extended MODERN weapon season. "

The crossbow is not a modern weapon. Further, in states with long histories of crossbow use, there is no difference in harvest rates between crossbows and "conventional" bows.

"We public land hunters have very low sucess numbers, see few deer and not many public land deer reach maturity of 4-8 years."

Not in counties with the 13-inch rule.

"A global passage of bill 1334 would increase pressure on the public deer herd and reduce the public herds age/maturity."

Virtually all public lands are administered by TPWD and hunting is by permit. Limited permits equals the same hunting pressure.

DZ

[DZaidle]

Put another way, some people will choose to pick up a crossbow and participate in hunting. That means more people who are hunters and therefore on "our side" at election time. That means more people buying archery stamps and putting money into bowhunting coffers. More people buying gear and accessories, thus swelling the Pittman-Robertson fund. More people with a reason to care about wildlife conservation. And if any of those people are youngsters, that means more kids accepting the hunting heritage and spending more time in the woods and less time playing video games or watching MTV.

DZ

There are already provisions in place for new folks who want to hunt with a crossbow; in the general season.

Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument with the new super-combo license. Especially since Parks and Wildlife never kept a tally of the stamps in the first place.

"There are already provisions in place for new folks who want to hunt with a crossbow; in the general season."

Not if they want to hunt an extended season.

"Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument with the new super-combo license. Especially since Parks and Wildlife never kept a tally of the stamps in the first place."

Then "conventional" bowhunters need to stop harping abput the season "they pay/paid" for.

DZ

[DZaidle]

I have no idea. Who are some of these people?

Don, I don't want to be confrontational and am personally tired of rehashing this debate online...but for the record you are one of these people. Like the family members of the TV hunter who went before the House Committee hearing HB-1334 as "concerned individuals", you accept money from Horton and work for them to promote crossbows through your magazine. I know how you personally try to influence your magazine's bowhunting contributors to use and promote crossbows as Archery Weapons...and have even discouraged some (myself included) from writing bowhunting/archery articles.

People who stand to gain financially through this type of legislation should not be the people pushing it...but you came here promising/threatening to get us next time! Yet, you portray the archery community as hostile in this cartoon you ran in '04? [see below]

Simply put this is not an anti-crossbow crusade for us, Don. It is our reaction to this crusade being driven by crossbow manufacturers across North America....not just in Texas. It is also the reaction of every other State/Provincial Bowhunting rights organization in North America, the North American Bowhunters Rights Coalition, the Pope & Young Club, the Professional Bowhunters Society, the National Bowhunter's Education Foundation, etc...we must all be too slow to understand "logical" thought. ;)

Anyway, I'll likely hang around until you guys kick me out...
No one wants to kick you out, (though a minority) there are some LSBA members who share your view on this issue. We value their overall support and opinions as much as any member's but our actions must represent the majority of our membership. I would welcome the opportunity to share a campfire with you sometime soon, hunt some hogs...and if you insist we can discuss this topic. Maybe if we'd both learn that we are not one another's enemy, we can work together to find a solution that will satisfy both sides of this debate.



My magazine does not "accept" advertising from any manufacturer--we *solicit* it. It is how we make our livings. That is no more relevant to the issue at hand than is the Gulf Fisheries Counsel gutting the recreational snapper fishery in favor of commercial fishing. Because we solicit advertising from recreational fishing equipment manufacturers, should we be silent on this issue as well?

Sorry, Joey, that is at best a straw-man argument, or perhaps more properly a red herring.

And I reiterate agin that it was a schoolboy email from a "conventional" bowhunter that pused me over the edge on this. It made me even more of an "anti-anti" than I already was. I am fed up with elitism, calls for bans of this or that method or means that that is perfectly legitimate and ethical--and exclusionary rhetoric, regardless of it purpose or origin.

DZ

[Trailboss]

"Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument with the new super-combo license. Especially since Parks and Wildlife never kept a tally of the stamps in the first place."

Then "conventional" bowhunters need to stop harping abput the season "they pay/paid" for.

DZ[/quote]

Just because TPWD doesn't keep a count doesn't change the fact that we paid for the stamps.

Trailboss

[DZaidle]

"I've never been titled an elitist because I feel that hunting with handguns should not be allowed in the archery season why am I so because of my position on crossbows?"

Because handguns are firearms,not bows.

DZ

[DZaidle]

grizz:"Is it your position that Public Land deer are mature, numerous and need to be culled at a greater rate?"

Strawman argument, I never said that.

My position is that there is *no* logical or biological reason to disallow crossbows during arhhery season; that allowing them would increase hunter recruitment/retention, and would increase license sales and therefore help fund TPWD.

Since crossbows on public land seems to be your primary concern, there is a simple remedy for that: disallow them on public land. Similar restrictions are already in place on many public lands (restricted to shotguns only in some cases, shotguns, muzzle loaders, and bows in others, etc.) Since most hunting in Texas is on private land, such restrictions would affect the fewest hunters while freeing the rest to hunt private lands with crossbows during archery season.

DZ

[DZaidle]

Trailboss: "Just because TPWD doesn't keep a count doesn't change the fact that we paid for the stamps."

Crossbow hunters will buy archery stamps, too.

Besides, *you* are the one who wrote that "Archery stamps are almost an invalid argument..."

DZ

[DZaidle]

grizz: We can disagree on the effective range comparison for now because range is not the issue. It

[grizz]

This is so full of holes I hardly know where to begin.

I

[grizz]

Since crossbows on public land seems to be your primary concern, there is a simple remedy for that: disallow them on public land. Similar restrictions are already in place on many public lands (restricted to shotguns only in some cases, shotguns, muzzle loaders, and bows in others, etc.) Since most hunting in Texas is on private land, such restrictions would affect the fewest hunters while freeing the rest to hunt private lands with crossbows during archery season.

DZ[/quote]

Then I have no further argument pro/con except my philosophical one which is definitional. Since I don't lease, I will defer to others to standup and support thier hunting situation.

BTW, Thank you for posting here and discussing this issue. I was unaware of the Draw assist mechanism being within the current rules.......

[grizz]

How do you reconcile that with your assetion that the neophyte crossbow hunter, "wouldn't get off a shot"?

You misunderstood, the neophyte would have a greater opportunity TO get off a shot. More shots on animals taken. Higher harvest numbers overall.

its the new bowhunter (without draw assist) that has a higher hurdle to getting an arrow off the string.

[tinman]

Don, you may not think that it's relevant, I do. I remember our candid conversations from 4 years ago on this topic and know that you take the commitment beyond just another ad in your magazine...and that your disdain for us (bowhunters) on this issue was rooted long before any "schoolboy" e-mail you recently received. (See cartoon you published from 10/2004 again)

I guess we can just add the significance of your relationship with crossbow manufacturers to the growing list of things we disagree on. ;)

I've met other individuals in your exact position (TV/magazine guys with sponsors/advertisers who manufacture x-bows) and some of them have been asked to get involved the way you choose to do. I respect them greatly (even if we personally disagree on this issue) for not using their celebrity status or posing as "concerned individuals" to lobby this cause but rather trying to let the sportsmen of Texas influence this legislature.

I also know a few bowhunters that feel just as you do and who have no financial connections to any crossbow manufacturers. I listen to these individuals and respect their views (even though we disagree) much more than the opinions of people who don't bowhunt and are paid to promote crossbows.

I tire of fellow hunters attacking the bowhunting community (calling us elitist, zealots, etc...) for simply defending our sport's future and trying to preserve 30 years of Texas tradition for future generations.

I guess it boils down to what's important to us as individuals...some of us want the "bowhunting" that we pass on to future generations to resemble the "bowhunting" that we were introduced to and have come to love.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/tinman5575/jadynfulldraw.jpg

For others it's very important to lead this push to change the definition of a sport that you admittedly don't participate in??? Yet, you feel the need to "fix" us and right some 30+ years of injustice? Why?

If anyone has earned the right to have a hand in sculpting the future of the Archery Season in Texas, it's the bowhunters of Texas.

BTW, my cell # is 469-360-9626...feel free to call me if you wish to but this keyboard joisting is getting silly.

[DZaidle]

grizz:
"This is the SKILL of archers and the basics of a primitive weapon. "

No it isn't, this is about upper body strength. Skill has nothing to do with it.

"No offense but I am beginning to think this is getting disingenuous, Deer are geared to detect movement. No movement, the less chance for detection. The further away the deer is when the movement occurs, the less chance of detection. Drawing in the presence of the game is an integral component to

[BUFF]

In my uneducated opinion this has degraded into something not unlike politics. I personally don't want cross bows, muzzle loaders or guns in October. I welcome them all in November and December. That is my opinion. One man, one vote. You would be about as likely to get me to vote for Ted Kennedy as to support Cross bows. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't care why you want them, I don't and you can't make me. :lol:

[grizz]

[quote:d0b34729d6="DZaidle"]
I contend that harvest rates are harvest rates via weaponology, venue be damned.

Sorry, but TPWD biologists have not yet deemed this lame arcument worthy of study, at leas to my knowledge.

"You seem intent on dodging my primary argument, will MORE Public Land deer be killed?"

No, I never said that.

"You have said it

[DZaidle]

Don, you may not think that it's relevant, I do. I remember our candid conversations from 4 years ago on this topic and know that you take the commitment beyond just another ad in your magazine...and that your disdain for us (bowhunters) on this issue was rooted long before any "schoolboy" e-mail you recently received. (See cartoon you published from 10/2004 again)

I guess we can just add the significance of your relationship with crossbow manufacturers to the growing list of things we disagree on. ;)

I've met other individuals in your exact position (TV/magazine guys with sponsors/advertisers who manufacture x-bows) and some of them have been asked to get involved the way you choose to do. I respect them greatly (even if we personally disagree on this issue) for not using their celebrity status or posing as "concerned individuals" to lobby this cause but rather trying to let the sportsmen of Texas influence this legislature.

I also know a few bowhunters that feel just as you do and who have no financial connections to any crossbow manufacturers. I listen to these individuals and respect their views (even though we disagree) much more than the opinions of people who don't bowhunt and are paid to promote crossbows.

I tire of fellow hunters attacking the bowhunting community (calling us elitist, zealots, etc...) for simply defending our sport's future and trying to preserve 30 years of Texas tradition for future generations.

I guess it boils down to what's important to us as individuals...some of us want the "bowhunting" that we pass on to future generations to resemble the "bowhunting" that we were introduced to and have come to love.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/tinman5575/jadynfulldraw.jpg

For others it's very important to lead this push to change the definition of a sport that you admittedly don't participate in??? Yet, you feel the need to "fix" us and right some 30+ years of injustice? Why?

If anyone has earned the right to have a hand in sculpting the future of the Archery Season in Texas, it's the bowhunters of Texas.

BTW, my cell # is 469-360-9626...feel free to call me if you wish to but this keyboard joisting is getting silly.

[Trailboss]

Regardless of what happens with the law - I take comfort in knowing I don't have to allow them on my ranch! :)

Trailboss

[DZaidle]

Regardless of what happens with the law - I take comfort in knowing I don't have to allow them on my ranch! :)

Trailboss

And that, sir, is your perogative. :wink:

DZ

[DZaidle]

I did my best, hopefully you can glean something from my arguments that will generate some understanding rather than disdain.

Grizz, I do not disdain you. Gawd, man, many was the year I was where you profess to be. Now that I am economically/socially positioned to hunt anywhere I please anytime I want, I cannot because of business/ethical commitments.

I wishe you well, and my hope that you truly understand the caveat: "Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever." You are clearly not stupid (beyond learning/hope), but mildly ignorant (not aware of certain knowledge, capable of excellence and learning).

I wish you the best.

DZ

[BUFF]

"mildly ignorant" :lol: :lol: now thats funny right there. poor ol grizz. See there, We are not all stupid just Mildly Ignorant :lol: :lol: :lol: . Dzaidle I truly enjoy reading stuff posted by the few Smart people :lol: :lol:

[LostHawg]

Personally, I rather enjoy being mildly ignorant. Means I still have room for growth. ;) I hope those who are perfectly knowledgable don't get too bored waiting on me. :lol:

[BUFF]

I guess if I had not always been so dat gum pretty, I would have learned more growing up :lol:

[roger]

I guess if I had not always been so dat gum pretty, I would have learned more growing up :lol:

Don't worry Buff, we know there is a man of substance behind all that pretty! :shock: :shock: :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[LostHawg]

I guess if I had not always been so dat gum pretty, I would have learned more growing up :lol:

I know how you feel Marty. :P

Kill any pigs this weekend?

[biggen]

:?:

[LostHawg]

Zaidle,
You want help editing your posts to get the quotations correctly formatted let me know... :lol: I'm not an editor, but I do know a little... :roll:

...not much, just a little. Don't go asking me nomenclature. I'll come up short everytime. ;)

[Bossbowman]

I've said it before, I'll say it again I oppose crossbows during archery season for two reasons

#1 because the whole basis of archery is draw in the presence of game, you have to outwit that animal very very close to you by pulling back your bow without it detecting you, and this is a very hard skill to master. The crossbow (and drawloc) totally eliminates this.

#2 Allowing crossbows open up archery season to allowing other primitive arms like muzzleloaders in the future, after all a crossbow is really just a bow rifle hybrid.

[grizz]

"mildly ignorant" :lol: :lol: now thats funny right there. poor ol grizz. See there, We are not all stupid just Mildly Ignorant :lol: :lol: :lol: . Dzaidle I truly enjoy reading stuff posted by the few Smart people :lol: :lol:

The medical term I think is; [b:c486871b4d]PO