TPWD Commissioners Propose Youth Rifle Season for the Month of October

[Hot4huntin]

At today's TPWD Commissioners meeting the original proposed change to the regulations was as follows:

Extend the early youth only season by five days and the late youth-only season by 12 days in selected counties to run concurrently with late antlerless and spike seasons. The intent of the proposal is to allow adults and children to hunt together during different special seasons.

Commissioner Peter Holt's final proposal was to extend Youth Rifle Season for the entire month of October up until the opening of General Season. Please watch for updates from the LSBA and in email newsletters. If I do not have your email address, please furnish it to me at denakana@gmail.com.

The LSBA would also like to hear your opinions on the matter. If you are not a member, it is time to join now!

[hillcountryhunter]

Once agian trying to encroach on the "archery only season." A youth hunter can hunt right now during archery season with a bow as the minimum draw weight has been removed.

[txhunter]

Once agian trying to encroach on the "archery only season." A youth hunter can hunt right now during archery season with a bow as the minimum draw weight has been removed.

I agree 100%. I don't know why there is even a youth season. They can hunt from the beginning of October until January. With no minimum draw weight, there is nothing stopping our youth from bowhunting during October now. This just makes no sense at all to me.:confused::confused:

[LostHawg]

No

The last time they just wanted the weekends, now the whole month?

No

[fatman]

I agree 100%. I don't know why there is even a youth season. They can hunt from the beginning of October until January. With no minimum draw weight, there is nothing stopping our youth from hunting during October now. This just makes no sense at all to me.:confused::confused:
I agree. What's the point? Why do they want to do this in the first place?

[Bweger]

No with a capital N. Even if a kid isnt a bow hunter they still have 2 full months or more to hunt with a rifle.

[tinman]

How 'bout an online opinion poll on this issue?

Ooops...almost forgot...add one more "no" to the list.

My kids don't need a "special youth season" to get to go hunting with me.

[txhunter]

There is your poll on the homepage of the LSBA website.

www.lonestarbowhunter.com (http://www.lonestarbowhunter.com)

[Beleg]

This is an issue where we need to rally the membership and make sure our voices are loud and clear at every hearing TPWD holds.

[Tomme]

Make mine a no too.

Parks and Wildlife offices across the states are trying very hard to "recruit" more youth into hunting as they are worried about declining hunting numbers.

As all of you know there is no lack of hunting opportunities in Texas for youth. At least not in terms of time to hunt. In many counties in S Texas the General (rifle) season runs from Nov 1 - Feb 1 (last two weeks are doe and spike).

In addition, there is the youth rifle weekend in October and didn't they add the 27-31 of October this year as well? As has also been noted with no minimum on draw limit very young kids can hunt with a bow and of course large ranches with MLD permits can also hunt rifle anytime.

This is a blatant attempt to destroy the archery season. I want a petition to carry to Tejas Archery and Clydes Archery shop. I also want to know when the public hearings are and I WILL GO TO AUSTIN TO TALK AT THE PUBLIC HEARING ON THIS ONE.

Please post that day and those of you working please plan on taking a vacation day. This one is worth it.

I think we should also look for sympathetic sports writers, write the Governor and email Parks and Wildlife.

[Tomme]

Got me so upset I emailed Parks and Wildlife. The commissioners are a body in and of themselves, but if enough is said to Parks and Wildlife it will be reported to them.

If you email, keep it polite but make it clear that you oppose this.

[BearOmni]

I too am opposed to this.
If any of you plan to speak at a hearing, please be prepared.

"If" this is picked up by a reporter...news print or outdoor mags....the headline will say ......LSBA opposes youth hunting season..........

If you are at a hearing you will be asked by a commissioner why you are trying to stop kids from hunting. Why you feel like kids should not have a special time where there is no competition from adult hunters.

The LSBA EC needs to get its ducks in a row, and have printed and researched talking points. You must anticipate questions and be ready with solid answers. These people will not ask a question they dont already know the answer to, so if you cant answer a question THEY will, and we probably dont want to hear their answer.

All members who attend these hearings need to be breifed on talking points and rebuttles even if they dont plan on speaking. You never know who will walk up and ask a question before or after a meeting. You may think its just another guy, only later to find out it was a reporter who will quote the response of "a member of the LSBA stated.....". Even though you thought you were just making small talk with a fellow hunter.

I can not stress enough that ALL members who plan to attend need to be briefed to a level that THEY could do the talking for the group, even if they have absolutly no plan to speak.

Good luck and if I can be of any assistance please feel free to PM or email me.

[Tomme]

Bear I agree with all you say. I also think that other than the President or other officially chosen voices that anyone who speaks should make it clear that they are representing only themselves or their club, friends, etc.

At most of these meetings you are only alloted a short time frame (like 2 or three minutes). They have a light system with a green light, yellow and red. When it hits red you are done.

It's sometimes worthwhile to have a written statement which you read. It keeps you on track and allows you to cram in more points in the short time frame.

When I was President in 2000 we managed to defeat a similar proposal for youth rifle hunts on every weekend in October.

It's worth hammering that

A. We personally and as an organization support youth hunting.

B. That there are plenty of opportunities in terms of hunting seasons for youth to hunt already and that this is not needed to create hunting opportunities.

C. That this would restrict or limit hunting opportunities for many hunters in the state who hunt on small acreages.

That last point needs to be made. I don't believe that any commissioner has spent the majority of his hunting life hunting on 300 acres or less with five other hunters. If you have a large high fenced lease of several thousand acres, this is not a big deal. For Mr. average Joe Plumber type of guy this will really mess up the season.

[LostHawg]

1.) What Tomme said

2.) What Tomme said

3.) What Tomme said

Did I miss anything.....?

[Videographer]

Well if we can't win "against" this battle I guess we gotta keep popping out kids so we can use this time legally. :(

[Tomme]

That was funny. I don't think I can afford any more kids. Besides by the time they got out of College I'd be dead.

Your daughter who came on the LSBA javelina hunt is a good example of how kids already have an opportunity to hunt. Or is it just bowhunters that are willing to take their kids with them during their season??

[Videographer]

Tommee I had Alexis on 2 youth hunts across the last 2 weekends.

So far she has gotten 2 Whitetail Does, and 1 Coyote...All w/Rifle though...

Give me a few weeks and we will begin releasing episodes for people to watch. We are currently dealing with some legal issues involving her mother, and rights to certain film, pictures, etc......

[Beleg]

Not allowing guns during the Special Archery Only season is important to the success of many bowhunters. Bowhunters need deer as relaxed as possible to make clean kill shots. Once the guns come out deer tend to become nervous decreasing bowhunter’s odds. Smaller acreage leases can't insulate themselves from the noise of the guns. I don't think TPWD Commission understands this. The Special Archery Only season is important to many bowhunter’s success. I hope to have the chance to explain it to them.

Texas is experiencing rapid growth. Large ranches are being broken up (land fragmentation), urban sprawl is continuing, and population is expanding especially in the Dallas-San Antonio-Houston triangle. Gun hunting leases are getting more and more expensive and many hunters are being squeezed out. Bowhunting is done at short ranges and can be experienced safely on smaller acreage even in urban settings. TPWD should be doing all it can to encourage bowhunting as a way to increase hunter numbers. Bowhunting may even be a way to keep gun hunters buying licenses that have been priced out of the lease market. The Archery Only Season is a great asset to TPWD, not a liability or the province of “special interests”. The Commissioners should be our best allies, not our opponents! Bowhunting has more growth potential than gun hunting in the long run.

The LSBA is doing more than most organizations to promote youth hunting. We promote youth involvement in outdoor activities and bowhunting by sponsoring free youth archery ranges at events all over that attract thousands of kids and their families. We work in conjunction with TPWD on many of these youth archery ranges introducing urban kids to archery, bowhunting and other outdoor activities. This year we had youth bowhunts where only the kids hunt. We have group bowhunts where youth are encouraged to bowhunt with their parents and the kids hunt free. We give up many weekends a year and considerable out of pocket expense traveling to these free youth archery hunts and events. It isn’t unreasonable or selfish to want to maintain and preserve the Special Archery Only season. Bowhunters are not selfish and welcome youth and new bowhunters to our sport.

The Commission should be seeking out bowhunters asking what the Commission can do to help us introduce youth and adults to archery and bowhunting. What are they thinking?

[Curtis]

I'm all for getting youth into the woods. But not the idea of taking it from bow season. They should just extend the January Special Youth Season instead.

[BearOmni]

Not allowing guns during the Special Archery Only season is important to the success of many bowhunters. Bowhunters need deer as relaxed as possible to make clean kill shots. Once the guns come out deer tend to become nervous decreasing bowhunter’s odds. Smaller acreage leases can't insulate themselves from the noise of the guns.

The only thing I see "wrong" with this argument is it will draw the question of :

"If this is true, then are you saying we should stop allowing bow hunting during the general season"

All the reasons you listed for not using guns during archery season are excellent points for why they should ban bows during general season, thus making it "gun" season.


As I said in my first post, I agree with everyone else here. This is our (bow hunters) time. The kids can already hunt during this time with a bow. They can hunt everyday during general season with a gun. I agree with this.

We (yall) MUST have statements/talking points prepared well ahead of time and be prepared to answer ANY questions that will rise from you statements.
You have to tear apart your statement and see if there is ANYTHING they can misconstrue, or turn against you.

As a union officer and civil service employee I had to deal with city leaders, city council on a regular basis. I learned my lessons the hard way. I know all about time/comment limits, Roberts rules of order,and not being able to correct them when they tear apart your statement right in front of you because your time to speak is up.

I would be glad to meet with any one of the EC members in person or through email and try to "knock holes" in your statement/argument in an effort to make it better/stronger.

Depending on who's behind this and how hard its being pushed, I can see this turning ugly. In most peoples eyes you are on the wrong side of things if you speak out AGAINST anything that is FOR kids.

Obviously the EC has experience dealing with the commission. I trust their judgment but we (they) must be 100% prepared.

[biggen]

Bear would you like to be on the EC?

[mesquitecountry]

100% for any addition of getting youth involved in the sport of "hunting"


I will not be selfish and will glady share my hunting season with kids so that they too may hunt after i'm gone.

[JavelinaRuss]

100% for any addition of getting youth involved in the sport of "hunting"


I will not be selfish and will glady share my hunting season with kids so that they too may hunt after i'm gone.

X2 I'm doing everything I can to get kids in the woods gun OR bow

[Bill M]

Has nothing to do with selfishness. There is not one person on this board that is against youth hunting and to state otherwise is pure foolishness. You fellows that have access to the large, controlled ranches seem to have all the answers but you haven't a clue how this would effect small acreage and public land hunters. To state otherwise again is foolishness.

Beleg stated is best IMO.

I can see hunter numbers declining and for reasons other than not getting youth involved. You guys really need to look into some of those issues if it doesn't interfere with your way of hunting.

So if this were to come to pass, do they do away with the archery stamp or now do we have to have a firearm stamp?

[mesquitecountry]

Who is saying do away with bow season! NO one. This is an addition of Youth hunting. Not the same thing.

Bill,

I do hunt low fence small property high hunting concentrations also not just high fence.

I'd give up any deer on my wall if he hops the fence and a 10 year old pops him with a rifle. I'd give the little fella a high five and congratulate him/her.

Saying I dont want a youth season IMO is saying I dont want a kid to get a headstart rifle hunting or for a kid to shoot a buck that I had been watching. That's where I get the the selfishness tone.

[Bill M]

Who is saying do away with bow season! NO one. This is an addition of Youth hunting. Not the same thing.
If firearms (doesn't matter who's pulling the trigger) are going off everywhere there is no longer an archery season, period. I have to wonder what the archery success rate would be like if firearms were in the woods during October putting the deer on high alert. Would hate to see it decided that wound rates were too high and totally eliminate bow hunting period.

Bill,

I do hunt low fence small property high hunting concentrations also not just high fence.

I'd give up any deer on my wall if he hops the fence and a 10 year old pops him with a rifle. I'd give the little fella a high five and congratulate him/her.

Saying I dont want a youth season IMO is saying I dont want a kid to get a headstart rifle hunting or for a kid to shoot a buck that I had been watching. That's where I get the the selfishness tone.

That all sounds well and good Travis but still not all bowhunters have the same opportunities that others have. You still have an option regardless of what you say. I hunt my own land but it's a small tract (smaller than Joey's 198 acres) surrounded by larger ranches. I also know that our first two weekends of Nov have a number of youth involved on these ranches with their Dads as it should be. The deer are harder to get close to once the firearms start going off. That's a fact.

Quite frankly, if you mean giving up Heart Attack for a 10 year old to take I have to call BS. That's a real easy thing to say after the fact and why didn't you do it to begin with. The youth hunting isn't a new stance for you. I'm sure not saying your heart isn't in the right place but I really don't think you guys are thinking this thing through from all the angles.

[JavelinaRuss]

Saying I dont want a youth season IMO is saying I dont want a kid to get a headstart rifle hunting or for a kid to shoot a buck that I had been watching. That's where I get the the selfishness tone.

Yup and I WORK on those "big controlled ranches" I guide on them, but I've only "Shot" does, hogs and coyotes on the King, and the only thing I have been able to "hunt" there is the Nilgai bull I shot and have the skull sitting on my desk. I've hunted public land and it's not that bad, you just got to know where to go and if it's so hard then be like most and put in for the harder to get hunts where there is less pressure. The location of the hunting (since most of those "Large, controlled Ranches" also do numerous youth hunts several times a year, plus the leases on some of these ranches also do youth hunts) is irrelavant. If the deer are going to be that spooky then it's amazing how us bowhunters can kill anything during the general season!!!

[Bill M]

.............The location of the hunting (since most of those "Large, controlled Ranches" also do numerous youth hunts several times a year, plus the leases on some of these ranches also do youth hunts) is irrelavant. .............

Sorry JR but your experience is apparently limited making this statement. I find it curious that you keep knocking bowhunting during the Gen Season but don't mind putting the youth in the Archery Only.

I've had my say, I'm done.

[mesquitecountry]

Quite frankly, if you mean giving up Heart Attack for a 10 year old to take I have to call BS. That's a real easy thing to say after the fact and why didn't you do it to begin with. The youth hunting isn't a new stance for you. I'm sure not saying your heart isn't in the right place but I really don't think you guys are thinking this thing through from all the angles.

To carry on the sport i'd give it up in a heart beat. For just someone to shoot it to shoot it no, under our high fence. I wouldnt let a kid shoot a deer that big for the first buck at our place. I guess you just dont understand how our family works. We give back because we have been given plenty.

Low fence if the buck jumped the fence and was shot by a youth hunter on opening weekend of bow season with a rifle I'd congratulate him/her and be as happy as can be.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice to gain. Granted I'd much rather shoot the deer but if someone else did no problem here! I shot him because he was the biggest I've ever seen. I dont shoot deer like that back to back to back. We rotate on our ranch. We all give and take. No selfishness.

If you think i'm full of it so be it. I've put in the time, i alone have introduced 8 new hunters to bow hunting this season alone! Have taken numerous youth hunters/new hunters/vets over the last 5 years and will continue to do so. I'm not looking for a pat on the back or for anyone here to justify what I do. I do it cause I actually care about this sport.



In regard to guns. You or anyone can get MLD right now and start blazing away with guns in October. The doom and gloom you keep predicting is here and the sky is not falling yet.

[nothinbutwelves]

if any of you have ever been to a function where the L.S.B.A.was there you would know our dedication to ours as well as any youth out there is un wavering.just show up and spend 8 hours in the heat pulling arrows and kneeling down to help show a youngster how to hold a bow and release an arrow.this is bigger than your personal accomplishments of getting however many new hunters this year or last, this is our heritage.there isnt anyone amoung us that hasnt got someone started hunting our young people today arent tought to wait for things the old patientce is a virtue is being lost.and it is being taken by men who just dont want to share their openining morning with their young people ,here is where your selfishness shows its ugly head not by the L.S.B.A.trying to hold on to what is precious to us i am one of the biggest advocates for youth that i know i cut 3 adult classes to add young people classes to our 3d season and i took some ugly comments from those adult class people.youth are being used as shields to get symphony from those of us who may be on the fence kids can still hunt and they should hunt.let them learn to wait for their rewards so there is an appreciation for their accomplishments.within the peramators of a legitamate hunting season.if those of you who want to take youth hunting they have almost 3 months in general season to do so as well as let them have a bow for the month of oct.i love my family and i love all children!make no mistake about it this is not about young people hunting this is about parents who dont want to take their kids hunting on their time so it is better to do it on our time {bowhunters }now we need to unify and and quash this as a united organization. yours truly.

[mesquitecountry]

I've said on tbh and I'll say it right here again. I do not discredit any of the activities that LSBA puts on for youth. You will never hear those words come out of my mouth. This has nothing to do with the LSBA programs.

We only recruit people that already hunt and we want them to join the bowhunting group.

We need to be recruiting hunters. Not people who have hunted or just gun hunt but anyone that would say yes to the following question.

I know you may be against hunting, but hey why dont you and your kid/wife/cousin niece nephew come down with me and hunt some squirrels/hogs/deer with rifles,bows,slingshots, eat some good food and enjoy the peace of the outdoors. We'd love to have you as apart of the outdoorsman family.



Then recruit them to bowhunting after the fact.

I'm sorry but me as an indivdual entity can do much more by doing this than I can just helping out at a sponsored event. Not discrediting or anything just saying I can do much more on my dime and time.

[Bill M]

To carry on the sport i'd give it up in a heart beat. For just someone to shoot it to shoot it no, under our high fence. I wouldnt let a kid shoot a deer that big for the first buck at our place. I guess you just dont understand how our family works. We give back because we have been given plenty.

Low fence if the buck jumped the fence and was shot by a youth hunter on opening weekend of bow season with a rifle I'd congratulate him/her and be as happy as can be.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice to gain. Granted I'd much rather shoot the deer but if someone else did no problem here! I shot him because he was the biggest I've ever seen. I dont shoot deer like that back to back to back. We rotate on our ranch. We all give and take. No selfishness.

If you think i'm full of it so be it. I've put in the time, i alone have introduced 8 new hunters to bow hunting this season alone! Have taken numerous youth hunters/new hunters/vets over the last 5 years and will continue to do so. I'm not looking for a pat on the back or for anyone here to justify what I do. I do it cause I actually care about this sport.



In regard to guns. You or anyone can get MLD right now and start blazing away with guns in October. The doom and gloom you keep predicting is here and the sky is not falling yet.

Travis I'm not questioning at all you or your family's commitment to getting folks involved in hunting at your ranch. That is a commendable thing to do but what you and others are advocating flies in the face of what those before you and me have done for the sport of bowhunting in Texas and that I can't condone. I am done now.

[Tomme]

Mesquitecountry where I disagree with you is your apparent belief that more youth rifle weekends in October is necessary for youth recruitment. With 10-15 weekends already available for kids to rifle hunt deer, this will, (in my view) have little impact in terms of youth recruitment. It is not time to hunt that is restricting kids from hunting it's affordable leases and places to go.

In addition if you are interested in continuing hunting as a tradition in Texas you need to broaden your view to include not just new hunter recruitment, but also hunter retention as well.

I would not be a hunter today if it were not for the special archery season and bowhunting. On the small acreage leases I could afford in Central Texas the deer disappeared after opening weekend of rifle season. A 30 day season where I could at least see deer in October kept me going. If you "ruined" the opportunity to hunt on those small acreages in October, I and many like me would not be around and you'd have a net loss in hunter numbers.

In addition, you can bowhunt many more people on an archery lease than you can one that is primarily for rifles. This includes kids. With the decision to do away with the minimim poundage draw weight, practically any kid can bowhunt. A good example was at the recent LSBA deer hunt at the Palmer ranch where a 9 year old harvested an 8 pt.

Instead of trying to encourage all kids to become rifle hunters during archery season, why not encourage them to pick up a bow. My youngest son (who is now 29) remarked on one of his first bow hunts that "This (bowhunting) is a lot harder than hunting with a rifle, and a lot more fun."

Let's don't degrade an existing season, but rather encourage kids to bowhunt. Those that do, will be much more likely to become lifetime hunters which is really the desired goal. What about a "youth only" archery weekend the weekend before archery season starts. Now that might work toward hunter recruitment indeed.

[mesquitecountry]

That is a commendable thing to do but what you and others are advocating flies in the face of what those before you and me have done for the sport of bowhunting in Texas and that I can't condone.

Why is it that everytime someone that comes along that is younger that wants to improve something it is given a negative connotation Bill?

I know this is far fetched but it is an analogy not really pertinent but an analogy nonetheless.

Slavery was supposedly a great thing at one time, well we all know for a fact that it was one of the most devastating misuse of power in history. Not comparing the two but just playing the devils advocate.

I'm not for opening october to all hunters with rifles and I'm glad we have a bow season in Texas. But the youth are our future and all I hear is I dont want guns blasting around me shooting "my" deer. I'm not saying this is the answer to promote hunting. Probably wont even work. But we must do something.

Let's don't degrade an existing season, but rather encourage kids to bowhunt. Those that do, will be much more likely to become lifetime hunters which is really the desired goal. What about a "youth only" archery weekend the weekend before archery season starts. Now that might work toward hunter recruitment indeed.

Tomme,

Oddly enough I agree with you on this last paragraph. I think that would drive up bowhunting opportunities and recruitment.

Retension is really a case by case issue. Some people will just stop. It's like the unemployment rate. You always have some that want to but choose not to.

In regards to your reference of your son. In all actuality he is not the demographic we are chasing. Really we should not focus on the kids that we know are going to hunt in some form or another.

You see it as degrading. I see it as an opportunity.

[Tomme]

Mesquite you said

"In regards to your reference of your son. In all actuality he is not the demographic we are chasing. Really we should not focus on the kids that we know are going to hunt in some form or another."

You added

"You see it as degrading. I see it as an opportunity."


Mesquite, I have four kids, all tried hunting with a rifle. Only one took up bowhunting and he is the only one that still hunts, so you are wrong when you say that this is not the demographic we are chasing. If there hadn't been an archery season he never would have tried bowhunting and I would have no kids that still hunt.

As you know I pointed to the degrading of the archery season due to an intrusion of rifle hunters. I think that it readily and logically apparent to those of us who have had to hunt on small acreages. I regularly hunted and introduced others to hunting on my Texas vet tract of 35 acres in Burnet county. Lots of deer (small, but lots of deer). And yes putting rifle hunters on the next small acreage tract would have degraded the heck out of the season.

You say that you see it as an opportunity, but you failed to point out why that is the case. I asked previously, why if kids already have the opportunity to deer hunt with a rifle on weekends in November, December and January plus a weekend in October that they need the other October weekends. You failed to answer that question.

Plenty of opportunities for youth rifle hunting for deer already exist plus many more opportunities to take a kid squirrel hunting, rabbit hunting etc. You haven't given any arguments for why these weekends are needed.

Let me make a suggestion to you. Go to Parks and Wildlife and propose that only youth be allowed to hunt with a rifle for the first nine days of the rifle (general season). That's the first two weekends plus the intervening weekdays. If you truly believe in more youth rifle opportunities at any cost then you will support this even though it takes away from your season. But hey don't look at it as taking away or degrading your season, look at it as an opportunity.

I imagine you'll say that this isn't the same as this doesn't allow people to hunt during that time. I've got news for you, putting hunters with rifles right next door to my small archery stand doesn't allow me to hunt either.

We don't need 4 more youth hunt weekends. I don't believe it will do much to recruit youth hunters. It will hurt the archery season.

[BearOmni]

Bear would you like to be on the EC?

I would like to help as much as I can. As far as being on the EC......first I need to get off my butt and send Dena some money :D I always say "I need to join the LSBA" but put off calling Dena till "next week" and it just hasent happened yet. :grandpa:But it will...soon. :o

I truly believe in what yall are doing for our sport and our rights and want to be a part of it. I did donate a lot of money :beer:at the LSBA banquet this year so that should count for something...:D

Anyway, I will be contacting Dena on the 21st (thats when I get home) and I'll gladly pay my dues and join the fight as a member.

Until then I will still be glad to help any way I can. All you have to do is ask.

[BearOmni]

first I need to get off my butt and send Dena some money :D I always say "I need to join the LSBA" but put off calling Dena till "next week" and it just hasent happened yet. :grandpa:But it will...soon. :o


Just figured out I could join from the site using pay pal. Done deal, I'm all signed up now!

[LostHawg]

Welcome aboard Omni. ;)

As to the rifle hunting in October weekend thing.

The LSBA is a bowhunting organization in the endeavor to promote and preserve bowhunting. It only makes sense that our intent is to preserve the archery season. Allowing the use of rifles during the archery season is not doing that.

And yes, we are pursuing getting more youth involved in hunting. Look at all the work Ronny and them did in concert with Palmer to get those kids on stand. How about our efforts at the Expo and the various shows. Look what Dena and Bob are doing? How about Kevin Hilbig? That guy has bent over backwards for the kids. Buff? Shoot, we've put as much or more effort in this preservation of our short 30 days than any other organization does for the other 335.

I say no to rifle weekends and no to extending the rifle season. October is for archery.

Not to mention 3D.

[mesquitecountry]

You say that you see it as an opportunity, but you failed to point out why that is the case. I asked previously, why if kids already have the opportunity to deer hunt with a rifle on weekends in November, December and January plus a weekend in October that they need the other October weekends. You failed to answer that question.

It is an opportunity for more days make it easier for more youth and their families to get a "headstart". Kids deserve a head start as much as anyone. Why not give them a chance to kill a good buck before every tom dick and joe blast a buck on your neighboring 35 acres. They're going to die most likely anyway. Why not give kids a chance.

Mesquite, I have four kids, all tried hunting with a rifle. Only one took up bowhunting and he is the only one that still hunts, so you are wrong when you say that this is not the demographic we are chasing. If there hadn't been an archery season he never would have tried bowhunting and I would have no kids that still hunt.

If your kids wouldnt have tried bowhunting then that is your duty as their leader. If they fall out of hunting then somewhere along the line we failed them by not giving them enough. But your children are not the demographic we are looking for. Your children, being that you have an extremely proud hunting back ground would be almost guaranteed to hunt. We as a group need kids that would never pick up a gun or bow and take them to hunt. Picking up every person that PETA has missed. That's who we need. I'm sorry but your's and my kids or anyone else that's on this site or tbh are not the kids that we need to worry about. We need numbers.

Let me make a suggestion to you. Go to Parks and Wildlife and propose that only youth be allowed to hunt with a rifle for the first nine days of the rifle (general season). That's the first two weekends plus the intervening weekdays. If you truly believe in more youth rifle opportunities at any cost then you will support this even though it takes away from your season. But hey don't look at it as taking away or degrading your season, look at it as an opportunity.

I'm a bowhunter not just a rifle hunter. My preferred method always has been bowhunting. I'm all for taking away from my season. I just think it should be done in bow season! General season is already set in place. Why would we change what they already have. We need to provide more opportunities. More opportunities equals more time in the woods for kids. Dont go into the well their parents should be going during general season. That is irrelevant. If we picked up 5 extra youth hunters because of this than we did our job. That's 5 more than we didnt have yesterday.

I imagine you'll say that this isn't the same as this doesn't allow people to hunt during that time. I've got news for you, putting hunters with rifles right next door to my small archery stand doesn't allow me to hunt either.

Thank you for proving my point. Selfishness will be the death of our sport. You dont want youth to hunt to be able to shoot a deer next door to you. You dont want them to shoot crossbows. You dont want anyone hunting on "your" month. If you dont like your lease and the neighbors are screwing it up then do what any american does. Work harder and get something you like. Somebody could start gun hunting MLD next door to you tomorrow and their not a thing you could do about it. Wouldnt you at least rather have kids smiling with a buck or someone shooting 10 deer for culls that you would have been proud to kill.

At least you have been steady in your ideology. You only want "your" way.

This is why our sport is dying. Because selfishness and greed, because we as a whole are unwilling to give up anything of "ours" to carry on the torch.

I've hunted low fence, low population, small acreage. Does it suck. Yes! If you dont like the way your neighbors hunt get up and go talk to them. TPWD has done an excellent job putting in antler restrictions and improving populations. Now it is up to us to make sure we continue on the heritage.

[BearOmni]

I'm a bowhunter not just a rifle hunter. My preferred method always has been bowhunting. I'm all for taking away from my season. I just think it should be done in bow season! General season is already set in place. Why would we change what they already have.

Umm, Archery season is already set in place too.

I dont know this for a fact, but have been told that bow hunters proposed a self imposed "tax" (archery stamp) to be allowed to hunt in Oct. This was done so hunts could take place without competition from gun hunters.

As has been said MANY times already, there are already special youth only days, and they can hunt ALL season anyway. Why let them hunt with a gun during October? If they want to hunt in Oct, teach them to shoot a bow.





I've hunted low fence, low population, small acreage. Does it suck. Yes! If you dont like the way your neighbors hunt get up and go talk to them. TPWD has done an excellent job putting in antler restrictions and improving populations. Now it is up to us to make sure we continue on the heritage.I agree 100%, we should strive to continue our bow hunting heritage to kids and adults during Oct and all season long. We should also strive to continue our hunting heritage during all of general season using all legal means.

[LostHawg]

Shoot, they could even make January 15 through February 15 a youth season. There are just too many alternatives for P&W that they don't even need to mess with October.

[mesquitecountry]

As has been said MANY times already, there are already special youth only days, and they can hunt ALL season anyway. Why let them hunt with a gun during October? If they want to hunt in Oct, teach them to shoot a bow.


One weekend for youth hunting is a joke. How many times do you think a prior engagement comes up where that child is robbed of his/hers weekend hunt. What if leases only allow children during youth weekend and they miss it.

How many 12 and under kids do you know that are not tied up with all the other extracurricular activites that have the time to practice and be able to pull a 40# bow to kill a whitetail. Not many! And I'm sorry but letting an inexperienced young hunter shoot at an animal with anything less is not ethical IMO. Too much left to chance. It is our duty to insure that the weapons we hunt with are sufficient enough to kill with.

Opening them up to hunting then bringing them into bowhunting gradually is the way to go. Not just say. If you want to hunt you have to wait.



Shoot, they could even make January 15 through February 15 a youth season. There are just too many alternatives for P&W that they don't even need to mess with October.

What good does it do for kids to hunt stressed whitetails where the majority of hunters have picked over most of the deer. Once again comes back to not putting the children first and foremost instead telling them we'll let you after all the grownups get to pick over the hunting.

More of the same "me" comes first.

[biggen]

What good does it do for kids to hunt stressed whitetails where the majority of hunters have picked over most of the deer.

So you are saying deer are stressed due to bowhunters picking over most deer?

[BearOmni]

One weekend for youth hunting is a joke. How many times do you think a prior engagement comes up where that child is robbed of his/hers weekend hunt. What if leases only allow children during youth weekend and they miss it.
To be honest, I'm not sold on the need for ANY youth days/season. I think some people are looking at this like kids are going to just show up because its a youth day, like we do for opening day. These kids have to get to the woods somehow, who is bringing them?
I dont think there are many kids that hunt unless they are with their parents or family members. Therefore, they can hunt ALL SEASON long. if a parent wont let them hunt on any day of the season why should we think that parent would take time out to bring them on a youth weekend?

How many 12 and under kids do you know that are not tied up with all the other extracurricular activites that have the time to practice and be able to pull a 40# bow to kill a whitetail. Not many! And I'm sorry but letting an inexperienced young hunter shoot at an animal with anything less is not ethical IMO. Too much left to chance. It is our duty to insure that the weapons we hunt with are sufficient enough to kill with.They dont have to be able to pull 40 pounds. If you agree with the rule or not it IS the rule that there is no min draw weight.
I do agree it is up to the parent to decide when a kid is ready to shoot at an animal. Bow or gun.


Opening them up to hunting then bringing them into bowhunting gradually is the way to go. Not just say. If you want to hunt you have to wait.While this is your opinion, and I respect it, I dont have to agree with it.
Why not bring them into hunting with a bow as the weapon of choice, then introduce them to guns.
You would still be bringing them into hunting, and teaching all the same "outdoorsmanship" (is that a word??) skills to them.
Is there a specific reason you feel kids should hunt with guns before hunting with a bow?



What good does it do for kids to hunt stressed whitetails where the majority of hunters have picked over most of the deer. Once again comes back to not putting the children first and foremost instead telling them we'll let you after all the grownups get to pick over the hunting.

More of the same "me" comes first.This would not be a problem if they were bow hunting.

[LostHawg]

If they are hunting with rifles, the stress factor is non existant. That is a weak argument at best. You set the kid in a walled in blind, zero his/her scope to 100 yards, set a feeder up at 80 yards and wait for the deer to come in to feed. Lay the stock on a rest and the kid snuggles up to the butt of the gun looking through 3 - 9X50 and squeezes off the round and the deer never even knows he/she was there.

The stress factor is not an issue for gun hunting. The deer can't outrun the bullet like it can an arrow.

Very weak...

My only concern would be the weather and that's an adaptable thing. It can be overcome. Part of learning to hunt.

And its a pretty sorry parent that's afraid to tell his/her child they need to wait till they're a little more mature.

[Bill M]

...........Selfishness will be the death of our sport............

You only want "your" way.

This is why our sport is dying. Because selfishness and greed, because we as a whole are unwilling to give up anything of "ours" to carry on the torch.

I find you arrogant when you continue to call someone selfish because they don't agree with you that a already in place season should be done away with. You don't know any of us. And yes, putting youth gun in the archery only WILL do away with it.

I don't think you want to discuss the real reasons for hunting numbers falling in Texas. Youth hunting is not the answer because it (youth hunting) is and has been going on for several years in Texas.

Why is it that everytime someone that comes along that is younger that wants to improve something it is given a negative connotation Bill?

I know this is far fetched but it is an analogy not really pertinent but an analogy nonetheless.

Slavery was supposedly a great thing at one time, well we all know for a fact that it was one of the most devastating misuse of power in history. Not comparing the two but just playing the devils advocate.
.............
Travis I've looked and I see nowhere that I brought up your age. The "improvement" is your opinion only and weak at that.

You are right, I see no analogy there at all.

Umm, Archery season is already set in place too.

I dont know this for a fact, but have been told that bow hunters proposed a self imposed "tax" (archery stamp) to be allowed to hunt in Oct. This was done so hunts could take place without competition from gun hunters..................

You seem to have skipped right over this one.

I said I was done before, I truly am now. Continue your stirring.

[mesquitecountry]

So you are saying deer are stressed due to bowhunters picking over most deer?

Tracy said add in youth season after general. Which would be where I was emphasizing the stressed deer from hunters in the woods.

To be honest, I'm not sold on the need for ANY youth days/season. I think some people are looking at this like kids are going to just show up because its a youth day, like we do for opening day. These kids have to get to the woods somehow, who is bringing them?
I dont think there are many kids that hunt unless they are with their parents or family members. Therefore, they can hunt ALL SEASON long. if a parent wont let them hunt on any day of the season why should we think that parent would take time out to bring them on a youth weekend?

I keep repeating myself. The point is to give them a head start BEFORE everyone else.

They dont have to be able to pull 40 pounds. If you agree with the rule or not it IS the rule that there is no min draw weight.
I do agree it is up to the parent to decide when a kid is ready to shoot at an animal. Bow or gun.


It is my opinion that a bow is not efficient enough to kill a deer with a bow that is less than 40#'s. If it is questionable then why let them shoot a deer and wound it. Then you have lost a deer and you have a disappointed hunter.

Is there a specific reason you feel kids should hunt with guns before hunting with a bow?

With regards to big game. A gun is much more efficient killing a big game animal. A .243 that is low recoil stands a much better chance at killing a deer than a 20 or 30# compound. It is about respect for the game and providing a clean kill.

This would not be a problem if they were bow hunting.

for the reasons above I have IMO shown you why the bow is inadequate for a young child to hunt big game. My daughter will have a kiddy bow the first moment she can be able to pull one back. She wont be able to bowhunt whitetails until she can pull 40 and be able to demonstrate that she can handle shooting big game with a rifle first.

I find you arrogant when you continue to call someone selfish because they don't agree with you that a already in place season should be done away with. You don't know any of us. And yes, putting youth gun in the archery only WILL do away with it.

I don't think you want to discuss the real reasons for hunting numbers falling in Texas. Youth hunting is not the answer because it (youth hunting) is and has been going on for several years in Texas.

Let me get this straight. Because you dont like my way of life it's arrogant! I hate to break it to you BILL. But everything that is being done to promote hunting IS FAILING MISERABLY! NOTHING we are currently doing is working.

I don't think you want to discuss the real reasons for hunting numbers falling in Texas. Youth hunting is not the answer because it (youth hunting) is and has been going on for several years in Texas.

Selfishness and greed is the main problem solving causing the decline in hunting, along with other faster gratification less time consuming hobbies.

So are you done now or are you going to keep on calling names while everyone else has remained level headed. You find that because I think differently I'm stirring the pot. Well i have news for you bill. I dont have to fall under the cookie cutter plan that is FAILING! I'm working on being proactive to make this GROW!


If they are hunting with rifles, the stress factor is non existant. That is a weak argument at best. You set the kid in a walled in blind, zero his/her scope to 100 yards, set a feeder up at 80 yards and wait for the deer to come in to feed. Lay the stock on a rest and the kid snuggles up to the butt of the gun looking through 3 - 9X50 and squeezes off the round and the deer never even knows he/she was there.

The stress factor is not an issue for gun hunting. The deer can't outrun the bullet like it can an arrow.

Very weak...

My only concern would be the weather and that's an adaptable thing. It can be overcome. Part of learning to hunt.

And its a pretty sorry parent that's afraid to tell his/her child they need to wait till they're a little more mature.

LMAO! You as well as everyone else has used gun hunting as a stress factor that will cause deer to leave your hunting areas. Now you're saying that gun hunting has no effect and putting a youth season after general wouldnt be hunting stressed deer. Seriously Tracy. You're all over the board trying to emphasize your points but you're flip flopping faster than john kerry on the war. I have no problem telling my daughter she needs to wait to bowhunt!

[mesquitecountry]

I am done arguing with everyone here. It is clear that no one that is apart of LSBA cares to listen to opposing views, overlooks the obvious that we are failing by a large margin at adding new hunters or keeping retension high.

Our programs are not working. Hopefully one day someone besides the handful are going to wake up (hopefully before we no longer have any hunting seasons) and realize it is time we put our future first and our wants second.

I'm done and not just saying I'm done and continue to post.

[Ronny]

I beg your pardon Travis
This boy is 9

[LostHawg]

There's more to hunting than taking the shot!

Travis, it appears to me that you aren't looking at the big picture.

Furthermore, you take our stance against rifle hunting in the archery season as being opposed to encouraging youth to hunt. Then you spend your whole effort talking about taking the shot, not hunting and making the shot happen.

First and foremost the child MUST learn his way in the woods. No ifs, ands or buts. Giving the child a bow and taking that child hunting for rabbits, quail, squirrel, other small game will do this. Far better than shooting with a rifle from an elevated box blind that you can drive to, drop the kid off, sit there till its time to leave. THAT is not hunting. You put the kid on the ground with a 25 or 30 pound bow and chase rabbits, and that kids going to be grinning from ear to ear as he passes out in the truck on the return drive home. Then, you'll be hard pressed for a moment of silence at supper as he retails a dozen times how his arrow skipped over the ears of that rabbit that was hiding under the prickly pear. Travis, you've GOT to take a kid HUNTING to understand. That gun you want them to have so badly is NOT how you teach a kid to hunt and ENJOY hunting. You give that child a bow or a light gauge shotgun and go after small game (which IS open in October) and you let them lead on the TRAIL. In this you can teach them deer sign, what a coon track looks like, a squirrel's trash after peeling a black walnut, etc. You don't do that with a .243 in a tower or brush blind. No, you put that child on the ground, on the trail, HUNTING.

What you and P&W are pursuing is NOT doing this. You look at hunting as just sitting there and when the deer shows up, turns sideways, you take the shot and you're HUNTING!! No. You have GOT to teach that kid from level one. What you and P&W have in mind is not hunting, it is merely "harvesting game".

See my avatar? I would never have been able to do that if I hadn't started at an early age hunting small game and learning when I can and can't move. If I hadn't learned to use the terrain as well as the flora as cover. When I could and couldn't take the shot. What better vehicle than the bow and arrow to teach these to a child? Not the rifle. The rifle isolates you from the environment and the animals you pursue. You don't learn much at all. Just shoot, cut and drag. Sometimes, not often, but sometimes you'll track a wounded animal, but not very often.

Archery, in this, prevails.

[BearOmni]

I keep repeating myself. The point is to give them a head start BEFORE everyone else.

Point taken, but your line of reason doesnt make much sense to me.
If we are to give them a head start BEFORE everyone else then October isnt the answer. They will be hunting with someone else, BOW HUNTERS.
If you are saying they need a head start before the other GUN hunters, then maybe we should suggest that November 1st through 10th be youth only.
With all the talk of selfishness, why cant gun hunters give up 10 days of their 3 months? (or more if they are MLD) Why should bow hunters, who have "bought" the right to have a month to themselves without gun fire be asked to give that up?



It is my opinion that a bow is not efficient enough to kill a deer with a bow that is less than 40#'s. If it is questionable then why let them shoot a deer and wound it. Then you have lost a deer and you have a disappointed hunter.
I'll never tell someone their opinion is wrong, but I can and will disagree with it.
The state says a bow less than 40# is legal to use.
The state says you must be 16 to drive, 18 to vote, 21 to drink, and you cant deer hunt with a rim fire rifle.
We must accept those rules and follow them. If you dont agree with a rule or law then you must get active and change it, but dont base an entire argument off the fact that the law doesnt reflect your opinion.



With regards to big game. A gun is much more efficient killing a big game animal. A .243 that is low recoil stands a much better chance at killing a deer than a 20 or 30# compound. It is about respect for the game and providing a clean kill.
Again, I see this as a parental responsibility. The parent must judge when a child is at what they feel is a proper draw weight.

Personally I feel if a child cant hold, steady, aim, and fire a gun without any help from someone they are not ready to gun hunt.

A child that is strong enough to do those things with a gun, is a child who can shoot a bow with enough #'s to kill a deer. It just takes practice and dedication.

[BearOmni]

Travis, You posted that you were done while I was typing the above post.
I value your opinion and would like to continue trying to understand you view point.
Dont get your feelings hurt and go away. If you feel strongly, make an effort to let others see your side of the story.

Be respectful (not saying you havent been) and have a healthy debate.

I still think I can turn you to my views :)

[traildust]

MC...Shouldnt you be stuffin' sausage or something..What I dont understand is why you get on a BOWHUNTING site and go against the grain, I guess TTHA doesnt have a forum....You say your for ALL hunters, but you continue to push your views, while they are not anti-hunting, they impose changes to what many BOWHUNTERS have fought for many years...ie: crossbows, firearms during BOW ONLY season...Then try to use children as a crutch to convence yourself that you are right and evreyone who doesnt agree with your view is out of touch, on a sinking ship or selfish...You say the system is broken, I say your wrong...Texas has about 160K bowhunters....every year more people get into bowhunting.....The major factor that hunting may or may not be declining is because of (2) major reasons....ACCESS and COST....You could have youth season 365 days a year and it would not increase youth partisipation...Its a changing world we live in...with all the extra curricular activities kids are involved in today...some the youths want, others that the parents push there kids into....there is simply not enough time...do you think parents that dont have time to take their kids hunting in Nov & Dec are really gonna have more time in Oct...school starting, football, band, FFA, 4-H..homework.....video games...I know the "time out" generation has a hard time understanding that everyone will not make the team, sometimes YOU lose and sometimes you have to just sit in the stands...thats REAL life....Also, I have seen this personally, many times parents try to push there kids into someting that the PARENT is interested in, and kids push away....Just because you like hunting, fishing, whatever, doesnt mean your kids will...IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.....Sportsmen are doing just fine......Take Care :)

[River Bottom Hunter]

MC...Shouldnt you be stuffin' sausage or something..What I dont understand is why you get on a BOWHUNTING site and go against the grain, I guess TTHA doesnt have a forum....You say your for ALL hunters, but you continue to push your views, while they are not anti-hunting, they impose changes to what many BOWHUNTERS have fought for many years...ie: crossbows, firearms during BOW ONLY season...Then try to use children as a crutch to convence yourself that you are right and evreyone who doesnt agree with your view is out of touch, on a sinking ship or selfish...You say the system is broken, I say your wrong...Texas has about 160K bowhunters....every year more people get into bowhunting.....The major factor that hunting may or may not be declining is because of (2) major reasons....ACCESS and COST....You could have youth season 365 days a year and it would not increase youth partisipation...Its a changing world we live in...with all the extra curricular activities kids are involved in today...some the youths want, others that the parents push there kids into....there is simply not enough time...do you think parents that dont have time to take their kids hunting in Nov & Dec are really gonna have more time in Oct...school starting, football, band, FFA, 4-H..homework.....video games...I know the "time out" generation has a hard time understanding that everyone will not make the team, sometimes YOU lose and sometimes you have to just sit in the stands...thats REAL life....Also, I have seen this personally, many times parents try to push there kids into someting that the PARENT is interested in, and kids push away....Just because you like hunting, fishing, whatever, doesnt mean your kids will...IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.....Sportsmen are doing just fine......Take Care :)

Very well put.

[nothinbutwelves]

weare tripping all over the answer i just saw it we leave oct as special archery season nov will be special general season where you can hunt youth rifle adult/youth shotgun adult/youth muzzle loader adult/youth crossbow adult /youth archery.then in dec ,as well as jan regular general season for all.this way all these rifle hunters can say i gave some to incorporate youth.lets ask the rifle hunters to give instead of take.we extend the season to the end of jan.be part of the solution instead of the problem.

[txhunter]

I beg your pardon Travis
This boy is 9


:) Thanks for throwing those in there Ronny. When we got home I put it on the scale and it is actually set at 30 pounds. So I guess a 30 pound bow will do the job. :D

[tinman]

What I dont understand is why you get on a BOWHUNTING site and go against the grain, I guess TTHA doesnt have a forum....You say your for ALL hunters, but you continue to push your views, while they are not anti-hunting, they impose changes to what many BOWHUNTERS have fought for many years...ie: crossbows, firearms during BOW ONLY season...Then try to use children as a crutch to convence yourself that you are right and evreyone who doesnt agree with your view is out of touch, on a sinking ship or selfish...

Ding, ding, ding....we have a winner, Johnny!

Tell traildust what he's won!

[LostHawg]

I beg your pardon Travis
This boy is 9

That boy is awesome. And, I expect to see Liam doing the squat too in the next few years. ;) As well as Caitlin...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/losthawg/Caityhood.jpg

She's just got to build up to weight. ;) Will be taking her out with a .223 this year in hopes of her getting her first. She's also 9. But, It will probably be next week or later. I just don't seem to have much time this year for some reason.

[Roscoe]

More of the same "me" comes first.

The "me" accusation is getting old. While it certainly may apply to some, to paint the whole archery community as such is unfair. I could just as easily say it's a "me first" thing that has parents seriousily slacking in the area of taking their children hunting during rifle season or it's "me first" that has some lease groups and landowners not allowing children to hunt outside the youth weekend, if they even allow kids to hunt at all. It's all un-productive "chatter" though.

The only reason I picked up a bow as a young adult in the first place was to spend more time in the woods hunting. There was never a point that I felt slighted or thought, "Those dang bowhunters gettin a head start...." I just picked up a bow and got after it. And during the many years where I quit bowhunting and only rifle hunted, I never had a problem with it either.

If bow season is open to youth rifle, what incentive will there be for youth to take up bow hunting? Most people and hunters basically tend to take the easiest route. I firmly believe that if a dedicated archery season is not kept in place, a SERIOUS decline in bowhunting will result over time. What a shame that would be.

I wonder how long behind this will come the push to open the general season Oct 1st?

I don't know what the long-term answer is to hunting particapation. I do not want to see the doing away with a dedicated archery season a part of the solution. This may go against the grain, but given the choice, I would rather see archery only be the last month of the season than give it up all together.

[DoubleJ]

At least we have generated some conversation on this topic and obviously some of us are very passionate about our opinions. Beleg covered it very well and pretty much sums up our position. The LSBA supports the youth of this state and have for years. Our booth at the TPW Expo has consistently been the most popular youth shooting event. We put the bow in the hands of over 7000 kids every year statewide. I will challenge anyone who questions our committment to youth hunters.

I also know for a fact, I was there, that the Commission used youth and women as their excuse for eliminating the minimum draw weight earlier this year not scientific evidence which was our recommendation. It seems to me they opened a youth archery season when they made that decision.

The following is an excerpt from TPWs Press Release regarding the upcoming public hearings:

"In response to a commission directive to seek additional opportunities for youth participation, the department is looking at extending the early youth only season to include the entire month of October and the late youth-only season by 12 days during January in selected counties to run concurrently with late antlerless and spike seasons. The intent of the proposal is to allow adults and children to hunt together during different special seasons."

Now a literal reading of the release "youth only" could mean no adult hunters without a qualifying youth. You also have to remember that in their infinite wisdom the Commission lowered the age for certification in Hunter Ed to 9. That means it is completely legal for an ARMED UNESCORTED 9 year old to be in the woods with you. Not likely but a scary thought just the same.

The LSBA could have supported the original proposal but Chairman Holt showed his true feelings about bow hunters when he issued the directive to consider the entire month of October.

If you think it will stop here then you are naive. We already have guns on MLDs in October now youth with guns in October. It's just one easy step to a General Season that runs from October thru January.

And just think we haven't even started facing the pending cross-bow issue yet but you can bet it's coming this next legislative session.

Having fun yet?

[traildust]

At least we have generated some conversation on this topic and obviously some of us are very passionate about our opinions. Beleg covered it very well and pretty much sums up our position. The LSBA supports the youth of this state and have for years. Our booth at the TPW Expo has consistently been the most popular youth shooting event. We put the bow in the hands of over 7000 kids every year statewide. I will challenge anyone who questions our committment to youth hunters.

I also know for a fact, I was there, that the Commission used youth and women as their excuse for eliminating the minimum draw weight earlier this year not scientific evidence which was our recommendation. It seems to me they opened a youth archery season when they made that decision.

The following is an excerpt from TPWs Press Release regarding the upcoming public hearings:

"In response to a commission directive to seek additional opportunities for youth participation, the department is looking at extending the early youth only season to include the entire month of October and the late youth-only season by 12 days during January in selected counties to run concurrently with late antlerless and spike seasons. The intent of the proposal is to allow adults and children to hunt together during different special seasons."

Now a literal reading of the release "youth only" could mean no adult hunters without a qualifying youth. You also have to remember that in their infinite wisdom the Commission lowered the age for certification in Hunter Ed to 9. That means it is completely legal for an ARMED UNESCORTED 9 year old to be in the woods with you. Not likely but a scary thought just the same.

The LSBA could have supported the original proposal but Chairman Holt showed his true feelings about bow hunters when he issued the directive to consider the entire month of October.

If you think it will stop here then you are naive. We already have guns on MLDs in October now youth with guns in October. It's just one easy step to a General Season that runs from October thru January.

And just think we haven't even started facing the pending cross-bow issue yet but you can bet it's coming this next legislative session.

Having fun yet?

DoubleJ...Carry on..You have my support........I just renewed my membership...actually getting a family pack

[BearOmni]

I also know for a fact, I was there, that the Commission used youth and women as their excuse for eliminating the minimum draw weight earlier this year not scientific evidence which was our recommendation. It seems to me they opened a youth archery season when they made that decision.
Yes it does sound like a youth archery season was made. Maybe they need to be reminded of that.

The following is an excerpt from TPWs Press Release regarding the upcoming public hearings:

"In response to a commission directive to seek additional opportunities for youth participation, the department is looking at extending the early youth only season to include the entire month of October and the late youth-only season by 12 days during January in selected counties to run concurrently with late antlerless and spike seasons. The intent of the proposal is to allow adults and children to hunt together during different special seasons."
I like the last line of this. The way I see it is if they are hunting "diffrent special seasons" they should follow the rules of that season. For example, bow during oct.



The LSBA could have supported the original proposal but Chairman Holt showed his true feelings about bow hunters when he issued the directive to consider the entire month of October.
If this is true, and the chairman or any of the commissioners feel this way towards us, how do we go about removing them from their seat? Are they appointed, elected, and by whom? How long are their terms?

[LostHawg]

Didn't he refer to bowhunters as a "special interest group"?

[DoubleJ]

Yes they did Tracy. In my opinion this Commission has shown a tremendous disrespect for the 135,000 or so bowhunters of this state. They have forgotten the fact that bowhunters lobbied them to institute the Archery Stamp in exchange for our Special Archery Season. Now we are nothing more than a "Special Interest" group. Unfortunately the Commissioners are appointed by the Governor (who happens to be a bowhunter). Perhaps we need to be letting him know how we feel.

[LostHawg]

I just can't get over bowhunters willing to throw away bow season. Just doesn't make sense. What exactly is the LSBA standing up for if its not to act as a buffer to these?

On my list for tomorrow: Email the office of the Governor.

[JavelinaRuss]

Sorry JR but your experience is apparently limited making this statement. I find it curious that you keep knocking bowhunting during the Gen Season but don't mind putting the youth in the Archery Only.

I've had my say, I'm done.

Before I moved to South Texas In terms of the case that "Guns scare deer" thinking here's my observation from a 1,800 ac lease my folks and me were on not to long ago in Sutton County:

On this lease were ten hunters and only two were rifle only (my folks) the rest of us bow/rifle hunted and as such had ground blinds and tripods close to our feeding areas. Of all ten stand locations my parents stands had the most clam deer. Feeding stations were pretty much the same (two corn feeders in a small stand of cedar or oak) but the feeders with the more bowhunting going on at them the deer's head was on a swivel and the deer never seemed at ease.

The deer at my parents feeders never were skittish or jumpy, they just walked in and ate corn in peace and even stayed at the feeder when they left the area or walked back in to the feed pen a few minutes after they shot another deer. Everyone pretty much hunted the major holiday weekends and opening days and a few weekends in between so the blinds pretty much saw the same amount of hunting. it was from these observations I started putting a ground blind about 50 yds back on the major trail the deer used to my feeders and had wonderful luck bowhunting.

So my question is why are you still hunting after the archery season if it's SOOO much harder because all those rifles are going off?

[tinman]

Russ, I know you're tired of hearing about my little 198 acres in East Texas, but we haven't seen any deer at a stand since October. ;)

Apples - Oranges

[BearOmni]

Is yes or no the only option here? How about a happy middle.

Youth's can use guns during October only on leases or ranches over 5000 acres located in a 3 buck county.


Naa, ......I still dont like it. Bow hunters have paid for the privilege of hunting in October without competition from gun hunters.
If this goes through, do yall think the archery stamp will go away?

[traildust]

JRUSS,
I know you make your living guiding, so are you thinking that if this is passes it will get more kids/parents hunting, therefore increasing YOUR workload....which in turn means more money in your pocket?... Your argument that you want kids to be able to hunt 95 days like bowhunters is invalid, because if THEY start out bowhunting, THEY can hunt the 95 days like US bowhunters. You have to crawl before you walk...Whats YOUR real agenda...personal gain?:)

[Bill M]

Before I moved to South Texas In terms of the case that "Guns scare deer" thinking here's my observation from a 1,800 ac lease my folks and me were on not to long ago in Sutton County:

On this lease were ten hunters and only two were rifle only (my folks) the rest of us bow/rifle hunted and as such had ground blinds and tripods close to our feeding areas. Of all ten stand locations my parents stands had the most clam deer. Feeding stations were pretty much the same (two corn feeders in a small stand of cedar or oak) but the feeders with the more bowhunting going on at them the deer's head was on a swivel and the deer never seemed at ease.

The deer at my parents feeders never were skittish or jumpy, they just walked in and ate corn in peace and even stayed at the feeder when they left the area or walked back in to the feed pen a few minutes after they shot another deer. Everyone pretty much hunted the major holiday weekends and opening days and a few weekends in between so the blinds pretty much saw the same amount of hunting. it was from these observations I started putting a ground blind about 50 yds back on the major trail the deer used to my feeders and had wonderful luck bowhunting.

So my question is why are you still hunting after the archery season if it's SOOO much harder because all those rifles are going off?

To answer your question, because it's legal and after 40 years of being strictly a gun hunter, I prefer bowhunting for the past 6 years. Your above experiences don't begin to speak to the small acreage bow hunter in Texas. I could give you my experiences but I won't bother, it wouldn't matter to you.

I have to wonder why someone that would do away with archery only season bothers to come to bow hunting websites. Make no mistake, October youth season WOULD do away with the archery season.

JRUSS,
I know you make your living guiding, so are you thinking that if this is passes it will get more kids/parents hunting, therefore increasing YOUR workload....which in turn means more money in your pocket?... Your argument that you want kids to be able to hunt 95 days like bowhunters is invalid, because if THEY start out bowhunting, THEY can hunt the 95 days like US bowhunters. You have to crawl before you walk...Whats YOUR real agenda...personal gain?:)

I think JR's signature speaks volumes!

"I'm all for the sport of hunting by any legal means possible........My JOB depends on it!"

[LostHawg]

I think the primary problem is the actual hunter traffic. The more human scent left in the deers "safe haven", the less safe it feels and the more likely it will lay up and/or become skittish. The sound of a gun is much akin to thunder and as far as the deer is concerned, one boom in an 8 hour period is gone and forgotten. But, when you have hunters walking the senderos, fencelines and racing their ORVs back and forth looking for a hot stand, the quicker the animals become nocturnal. The other factor is safety. A bullet can travel quite a distance; an arrow a few hundred yards. A bullet will cross "198" mighty quick and with no substantial loss in energy. Just not what you want when you're camo'd top to toe and the shooter doesn't see you sitting 200 yards across the fence. They see "deer" at 100 yards, fence 50 yards further and brush/trees as a backdrop. They don't see bowhunter sitting on a tripod amidst a liveoak crown.

And, gun hunters, pertaining to human interaction, don't have to descent as the bowhunter does, so that means more human scent in the deer's safe haven and back to the going nocturnal thing...

So, safety and shot opportunity diminish quite a bit once the mass of gun hunters enter the picture. I've got 3 kids, so instead of 1 hunter in the woods, there's 4. So, using me as a comparison, that's quite an increase.

[Bill M]

LH it's unfortunate also that many, many in the woods are unaware of the change in law back in 2005 requiring that a projectile from a firearm not be shot in a direction that would cause it to cross property lines. I find it appalling that hunters don't update themselves with the regs every year. I basically have to keep my neighbors informed. At least on the ones that can effect my safety.

[BearOmni]

LH it's unfortunate also that many, many in the woods are unaware of the change in law back in 2005 requiring that a projectile from a firearm not be shot in a direction that would cause it to cross property lines. I find it appalling that hunters don't update themselves with the regs every year. I basically have to keep my neighbors informed. At least on the ones that can effect my safety.
Does that include .22's ......at night?? :p

Sorry I couldnt resist, its my :bedtime:. I'll check in this evening when I wake up.

[LostHawg]

LH it's unfortunate also that many, many in the woods are unaware of the change in law back in 2005 requiring that a projectile from a firearm not be shot in a direction that would cause it to cross property lines. I find it appalling that hunters don't update themselves with the regs every year. I basically have to keep my neighbors informed. At least on the ones that can effect my safety.

Exactly.

Omni, that's funny. The only deer that I know of my grandfather ever killing he killed with a .22 LR while he was fishing. Came and told us kids he got him an 8 point bass.... :D

[Roscoe]

The poll on this site is great, except the part where you can vote multiple times....

[mesquitecountry]

Just like to point out the blatantly obvious changing of your opinion on stress into relation of gun hunters tracy.

The stress factor is not an issue for gun hunting. The deer can't outrun the bullet like it can an arrow.


Then you changed your mind back. LOL!


I think the primary problem is the actual hunter traffic. The more human scent left in the deers "safe haven", the less safe it feels and the more likely it will lay up and/or become skittish. The sound of a gun is much akin to thunder and as far as the deer is concerned, one boom in an 8 hour period is gone and forgotten. But, when you have hunters walking the senderos, fencelines and racing their ORVs back and forth looking for a hot stand, the quicker the animals become nocturnal. The other factor is safety. A bullet can travel quite a distance; an arrow a few hundred yards. A bullet will cross "198" mighty quick and with no substantial loss in energy. Just not what you want when you're camo'd top to toe and the shooter doesn't see you sitting 200 yards across the fence. They see "deer" at 100 yards, fence 50 yards further and brush/trees as a backdrop. They don't see bowhunter sitting on a tripod amidst a liveoak crown.

And, gun hunters, pertaining to human interaction, don't have to descent as the bowhunter does, so that means more human scent in the deer's safe haven and back to the going nocturnal thing...

So, safety and shot opportunity diminish quite a bit once the mass of gun hunters enter the picture. I've got 3 kids, so instead of 1 hunter in the woods, there's 4. So, using me as a comparison, that's quite an increase.


I love the safety argument. Because gun hunters and bowhunters arent sitting in the same woods as bow hunters in november, december, january. :rolleyes:

Seriously use deductive reasoning. I cant wait till this goes before our legislature. I've already talked to one of the chairs on the committee that this will fall under. :D

[Roscoe]

I've thought about this issue alot over the last few days. The only way I could support opening the season would be for it to be for a trial period of say 2 to 3yrs max, and the success or failure would be determined by increased sales of youth licenses...and I don't mean a 1% increase either. I don't know what the % would/should be, but if the % increase is not met, then the additional time added to the youth season would be eliminated. If this could be written in stone and absolutely adhered to, I might would consider being a yes on the issue. However, I am still unwilling yield on there not being a dedicated archery only season regardless of the success of the trial. For me to consider being a "yes" on the issue would take additional archery only days being added to the calendar elsewhere.

Still, I do not think this is the fix for hunter participation. While I have not looked at all the other states seasonal dates, the few I have looked at seem to show that Texas already has some of the most liberal dates for hunting in terms of days and weapons of choice.

Anyone know how many states do not have a dedicated archery season?

[LostHawg]

Travis...

You're almost as bullheaded as I am... :D

Read what I've posted carefully.

[nothinbutwelves]

i dont think we should give an inch trial period or not.it is alot easier to keep your worms in the container than to let some out then put them back up as well as keep the rest in bowhunting in texas is on the firing line and we need to unite and lean hard against the tide of change on this issue.
keep em in the 12 ring.

[LostHawg]

I agree. Not an inch David.

[Roscoe]

I don't disagree with the fear of giving them an inch and them taking a mile. Really I don't, and I hope you got that sense in how I worded what I said.

That said, I'm not against at least considering some sort of compromise, as long as a dedicated archery only season continues to exist. And I don't mean a shortened one either!

[LostHawg]

I think that compromise was the last weekend in October. As well as the removal of the draw weight limit. AND the introduction of the draw-loc!

I think there are plenty of compromises that will allow youth to hunt October Whitetails.

I think a simple "No" will suffice.

[Roscoe]

I think that compromise was the last weekend in October. As well as the removal of the draw weight limit. AND the introduction of the draw-loc!


I will say that I do believe that more than one year needs to pass to see what, if any effect the above changes had on participation.

[LostHawg]

the draw lock has been legal for, I think, 4 years now. No noticeable difference. I don't think they were the marketing wonder the manufacturers thought they'd be.

I don't know how long the last weekend has been youth, I think about 12?

Minimum draw weight removal, I think, can be used very positively, if done right and responsibly. It can also bite us in the butt.

[nothinbutwelves]

we will compramise ourselves right out of a bow season if we are not dilligent ! just remember it is alot harder to remove something than it is to block it upon its first awarence.if we give in to this for 1 year or 5 we are doomed,you can mark my words.there is no room for complacency here.it is this kind of apathy that will have our right to keep and bear arms up for grab next.it is called pork and it is how things get passed always on the cuff of a well meant and foreseeably great idea.we cannot blink here.

[Roscoe]

we will compramise ourselves right out of a bow season if we are not dilligent ! just remember it is alot harder to remove something than it is to block it upon its first awarence.if we give in to this for 1 year or 5 we are doomed,you can mark my words.there is no room for complacency here.it is this kind of apathy that will have our right to keep and bear arms up for grab next.it is called pork and it is how things get passed always on the cuff of a well meant and foreseeably great idea.we cannot blink here.

I am assuming that your comments are in response to my statements above. If not, then I'm off base and apologize. If so, you do not know me well enough to characterize me or my thoughts in such a manner.

[nothinbutwelves]

roscoe no i do not believe i know you and i am not trying to put off on you i am trying to save the organization that i love and believe in with all my heart.and if we start saying compromise and such some new archers that do not know the struggle we have had to get to where we are today will be tempted to agree and a little or all is lost.i have said it before and will say it again this is not about kids/youth it is about parents who do not want to take time out of their season to hunt jr.or miss jr.this way they can get the kids hunt over before they start hunting the rut and the big boys.i meant no offence i am just trying to keep what we have and a break in the ranks with words like compromise and give start the undoing ,so i am a if you are not with me you are against me on this issue guy.and i will see you and shake your hand at the end of the race no matter what the outcome.nor what side you take.keep em in the 12 ring

[Roscoe]

Thanks for the reply nbt.:)

[nagaranch]

wow, just finished reading all the posts and nothing i can really add, that has not already been said, except i don't think the kiddo's need a special gun season all of oct. i'm a firm believer in teaching a kid to hunt. i don't think it needs to be during the oct. season, there are some other more optimal times that have already been explained in previous posts

[BearOmni]

I think any compromise is a loss. They want it, we dont. Anything that allows it to happen no matter how limited is a loss for our side.

I said in my first post on this topic that it could/would get ugly. Any time you speak out AGAINST something that has been packaged as FOR kids most people automatically put you on the "wrong" side.

The LSBA must stick to its bow's on this issue.
It would be prudent to offer options, that way we are part of the solution not part of the problem.
The EC needs to brainstorm and come up with 3 -5 viable options for extending/enhancing the youth season. Or come up with an acceptable reason to end youth seasons all together.

Maybe we could champion a "hunt with your kids" week. Develop guidelines, literature, rules and regs. Put together a list of goals for hunting with kids/introducing kids to hunting.
This is a main goal of the LSBA already, how many youth shoots do yall put on every year? This could be an option to end youth seasons all together.

If we could propose something like this and make it Nov 1st - 7th or even the 10th I think everyone would win. The State would accomplish their goal of having a program in place to incourage youth hunting, and we would still have an Archery only month (except for MLD lands).

Just a thought.

[mesquitecountry]

the draw lock has been legal for, I think, 4 years now. No noticeable difference. I don't think they were the marketing wonder the manufacturers thought they'd be.

And you had the armageddon flags out for that as well. Look we're still here!:D

[LostHawg]

We didn't have anything out when they put it on the books. They just did it. I think 2 years prior we'd talked them out of it. Then Keith Warren jumped in with both feet to get it publicity. A couple EC members met up with him to hunt and talk. He decided it wasn't all that great after all. Or, so it seemed. The next year when we opened our annual, there it was.

I still don't like the draw lock. I just hope someone doesn't hurt their self with one. Like a kid... ;)

[BearOmni]

The LSBA must stick to its bow's on this issue.
It would be prudent to offer options, that way we are part of the solution not part of the problem.
The EC needs to brainstorm and come up with 3 -5 viable options for extending/enhancing the youth season. Or come up with an acceptable reason to end youth seasons all together.

Any thoughts on this?

Good idea, Bad idea, Good idea but I dont have any suggestions........

Given some direction, I think I can help.
Or on second thought maybe a public forum isnt the best place to work on strategy. :think:

[Hot4huntin]

I agree with you, Frank!

[JavelinaRuss]

I have to wonder why someone that would do away with archery only season bothers to come to bow hunting websites. Make no mistake, October youth season WOULD do away with the archery season.

Do you honestly think this is the only site I come to(edit)? I am a HUNTER, not a BOW hunter, not a RIFLE hunter, but a HUNTER. Sadly though I see in ALL the sites I go to this arrogance that one person's bull crap don't stink worse then others. Unlike Travis I'm done arguing this issue.

I wish ya'll well in any and all endeavors hunting and life, and good day.

[JavelinaRuss]

You say your for ALL hunters, but you continue to push your views

And you haven't been either there kettle???:think::think::err:

[BearOmni]

Unlike Travis I'm done arguing this issue.


Thanks for being a man of your word. :D